Trying to parse all the data on HGH, TRT and secretagogues

BlueDog55 said:


"enclo vs. TRT, it sounds to me like there is a lot less long term safety data" There is no risk to proper TRT some people need an estrogen blockers and some people have to donate blood.

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This is a decision point. True TRT will stop natural production. Takes a long time to restart once stopped. Enclo boosts natural production, which is why it is worth looking into, especially if natural production is low, but still there. It wasn’t an option when I started TRT 10 yrs ago, doc put me on it with test-c about 3 yrs ago. Knowing what I know now, I would have liked that option up front. All that said, test-c injections have treated me wonderfully.
 
Enclo wasn’t an option for me, I was advised not to take any orals because I abused the shit out of my liver and even after being sober for 8 years my liver panel was not great. I’ve been on TRT injections for over a year now, and I’ve stayed on a lower dose of Tirz weekly (6.25mg). I am 36 years old and I would say I’m in the best shape of my life.

You’ll get a million different answers from a million points of view online but the reality is everyone is different. What works for someone may not work for you. It seems like you’re going the insurance route so I would recommend booking a consultation with someone who takes your insurance.

I don’t have insurance, 🇺🇸 so I eventually switched to UGL after learning everything I could with the clinic for a year.
 
fatjacked said:


But IF I got to an acceptable level on enclo alone, I would still need to continue enclo indefinitely to maintain that production, right?

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Maybe. Enclo gives you the opportunity to optimize supplement stack, and add in heavy weight training (proven to increase natural test production) before shutting down natural production with injection. Buys you time to see results and keeps options open. Injections are really a situation where once you start, you’re pretty much on for life.

By heavy weight training, I do not mean body building, I specifically refer to progressive overload and forcing the body to adapt. I’ve been lifting for well over 10 yrs, it was beneficial to my test numbers for the first couple of years, then it started to drift down again. I lift very heavy, but no one would look at me and think body builder, just very fit.
 
Gt3294a said:


What’s your bfp? Not knowing that, which could possibly change things if you said 10 percent and you have been stuck there, increasing your test (say times 2-3) will dramatically outweigh increasing your Igf to say 300 (which seems the most you would want to raise it, from your posts), in my humble opinion. Given your risk profile, I would save the HGH (or tesa etc) for when Igf likely drops more around 50 years old, and you are stuck trying to cut a bit. My 2 cents anyway.

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Don't have access to a DEXA scale right now but I'm around 26-27% I think.
 
Cannonball72 said:


Maybe. Enclo gives you the opportunity to optimize supplement stack, and add in heavy weight training (proven to increase natural test production) before shutting down natural production with injection.

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Cool. How should I go about adding heavy weight training to my existing routine of heavy weight training?
 
fatjacked said:


Cool. How should I go about adding heavy weight training to my existing routine of heavy weight training?

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You can take this personally if you want. Or you can look at it as bigger picture requirements of the intervention you inquired about.

The final paragraph of what I laid out suggests that I may have missed something specific to your post. I was writing holistically, not specifically.

“I apologize if I misinterpreted anything. I don’t intend to come across as a know it all. But I’ve been through it and found what really works for me, and if you read the stories of people on this site, you would see a very common pattern to what I shared.”
 
Definitely never taking anything personally from strangers on the internet. I'm giving you the business because you've already responded to several posts in this thread, prior to the post I quoted, where I directly told you that I lift heavy.

A lot of people come to this site and ask very basic questions having done close to zero research. I took a little time to give more details about my situation because I have already read a fair bit on everything I asked in my post (and some things I didn't ask about, like enclo and HGC). Some people took the time to factor in those details in their replies, others didn't, which is fine - typically with free advice, you get what you pay for.
 
fatjacked said:


Definitely never taking anything personally from strangers on the internet. I'm giving you the business because you've already responded to several posts in this thread, prior to the post I quoted, where I directly told you that I lift heavy.

A lot of people come to this site and ask very basic questions having done close to zero research. I took a little time to give more details about my situation because I have already read a fair bit on everything I asked in my post (and some things I didn't ask about, like enclo and HGC). Some people took the time to factor in those details in their replies, others didn't, which is fine - typically with free advice, you get what you pay for.

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Fair enough, just bear in mind, many people will see your topic, have the same question and not have your behavioral profile.

My reply(s) was/were generic to your post, but intended broadly.
 
If you have fat to lose, a few cycles of TRT with either CJC/Ipa no DAC, maybe just a single cycle if your weight is not too excessive, should be enough. However, I would stock up on Anastrazole, Enclo, and HcG before I began. But once you finally get rid of the fat to the level you want, I would keep a maintenance dose of a GLP in hand while using TRT alone to achieve body recomp. Like me, you too have low test. Mine is even lower.

Since you said that you dont care about fertility anymore, and that you are doing weight training, it becomes a question of obtaining the maximum benefit from the training you do. On that note, Testo use is the only thing you need. GH is tricky at your relatively young age. Not only does it take a long time to see the benefits, but if you don't have a lot of fat weight to shed, it wouldn't be optimal to use.

IMO, I would like my test levels to be around the 800+ mark regardless of method utilized. So, I don't think that you need GH now except for fat loss. I dont know what your weight loss target is so I cannot speculate. But if you are willing to keep pinning for the rest of your life, TRT should be the way to go.
 
Meritocrat said:


If you have fat to lose, a few cycles of TRT with either CJC/Ipa no DAC, maybe just a single cycle if your weight is not too excessive, should be enough. However, I would stock up on Anastrazole, Enclo, and HcG before I began. But once you finally get rid of the fat to the level you want, I would keep a maintenance dose of a GLP in hand while using TRT alone to achieve body recomp. Like me, you too have low test. Mine is even lower.

Since you said that you dont care about fertility anymore, and that you are doing weight training, it becomes a question of obtaining the maximum benefit from the training you do. On that note, Testo use is the only thing you need. GH is tricky at your relatively young age. Not only does it take a long time to see the benefits, but if you don't have a lot of fat weight to shed, it wouldn't be optimal to use.

IMO, I would like my test levels to be around the 800+ mark regardless of method utilized. So, I don't think that you need GH now except for fat loss. I dont know what your weight loss target is so I cannot speculate. But if you are willing to keep pinning for the rest of your life, TRT should be the way to go.

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Thanks for the reply. Just to be concrete, I'm 6 feet tall, started at 265, currently 225, my original GW was 220 but I am thinking I will shoot for 210 and recomp from there. I do plan to be on a GLP for maintenance long term.

Given the overlapping effects and risk profiles, my sense was the same as what you say above - test will probably achieve the goals as well as or better than HGH, and with better long term safety data. I had never really considered TRT before the last year or so but have been in the contemplation phase for a while and I think I would be fine with going on it long term if the effects are as advertised.
 
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