TRT When Testosterone Is Already High — Any Point for Lean Gains?
- Thread starter bayardtrustin
- Start date
bayardtrustin
Explorer
I'm going to keep my testosterone as is and continue focusing on a clean diet plus strength work.
wildweasel
Explorer
bayardtrustin said:
I’ve spent the last 2 months doing strength work with a personal trainer. I’m not chasing a bulk; what I want is to add definition without losing leanness.
Labs came back recently, and here’s what they show:
Testosterone: 865 ng/dL
SHBG: 90.6 nmol/L
Free Testosterone: 96.3 pg/mL
My understanding is that TRT generally substitutes for what your body makes on its own, so I’m hesitant — my total testosterone looks fairly high as it stands.
With those figures and the goals I have, is TRT even something worth looking into? Or is this a situation where the downsides would be bigger than any upside?
I’d like to hear from people who’ve been through this.
♂ M51 5’10’’ SW:280 CW:177 GW:150 BF:21.4 BFG:15St@ck: R6 Mon > Tirz7.5 Wed > R6 Fri
Jan 15 baseline values for me:
Total T: 644
Free T: 78
Estradiol: 29
Starting Feb 13, I ran Enclomiphene Citrate at 25mg daily alongside HCG at 250 iu on alternate days.
Bloodwork from March 17:
Total T: 1124
Free T: 156
Estradiol: 46 (elevated, felt overly sentimental)
On March 18 I introduced Arimistane at 25mg twice per day.
Bloodwork from March 18:
Total T: 1038
Free T: 138
Estradiol: 30 (back to roughly baseline)
Unlike TRT, Enclomiphene and HCG won't suppress your HPTA. Given what you're aiming for, TRT isn't something I'd suggest. The figures above are honestly near the top of the range you'd see from a TRT doctor putting someone on 200mg of testosterone per week... assuming you're a healthy male (which you are), you can reach those same numbers without wrecking your hormonal axis, all while supporting your fat loss goals.
TRT should really only be considered if you're dealing with low T and symptoms. If bulking is the goal, blasting testosterone directly makes more sense than going the medical TRT route. If staying lean is what you want (and that's you), head to the r/fitness wiki, study up on proper dieting and macro maintenance, and consider something to raise your T.
Here's what I'd suggest.
Just want to stay lean? Pick up enclomiphene, HCG, and some arimistane. None of these are regulated in the US. Figure on boosting your current T values by roughly 50%. Your body will then naturally direct more energy toward protein synthesis and less toward storing fat. You can stop whenever you like with no worries.
Enclomiphene and HCG don't shut down your HPTA. They cooperate with it, signaling it to produce a bit more. Your balls and cannon remain at 100% efficiency, and you're free to stop at any point... the moment you start TRT, your HPTA shuts down, you can't have children, your sperm count is destroyed, and it takes months to restart everything and get back to baseline
Cheers, bud
Mr. Blonde
Explorer
From what I've come across, enclomiphene has one downside: it brings igf-1 down. So perhaps run it in cycles, or throw in hgh now and then to bring it back up?wildweasel said:
bayardtrustin said:
I’ve spent the last 2 months doing strength work with a personal trainer. I’m not chasing a bulk; what I want is to add definition without losing leanness.
Labs came back recently, and here’s what they show:
Testosterone: 865 ng/dL
SHBG: 90.6 nmol/L
Free Testosterone: 96.3 pg/mL
My understanding is that TRT generally substitutes for what your body makes on its own, so I’m hesitant — my total testosterone looks fairly high as it stands.
With those figures and the goals I have, is TRT even something worth looking into? Or is this a situation where the downsides would be bigger than any upside?
I’d like to hear from people who’ve been through this.
♂ M51 5’10’’ SW:280 CW:177 GW:150 BF:21.4 BFG:15
Jan 15 baseline values for me:
Total T: 644
Free T: 78
Estradiol: 29
Starting Feb 13, I ran Enclomiphene Citrate at 25mg daily alongside HCG at 250 iu on alternate days.
Bloodwork from March 17:
Total T: 1124
Free T: 156
Estradiol: 46 (elevated, felt overly sentimental)
On March 18 I introduced Arimistane at 25mg twice per day.
Bloodwork from March 18:
Total T: 1038
Free T: 138
Estradiol: 30 (back to roughly baseline)
Unlike TRT, Enclomiphene and HCG won't suppress your HPTA. Given what you're aiming for, TRT isn't something I'd suggest. The figures above are honestly near the top of the range you'd see from a TRT doctor putting someone on 200mg of testosterone per week... assuming you're a healthy male (which you are), you can reach those same numbers without wrecking your hormonal axis, all while supporting your fat loss goals.
TRT should really only be considered if you're dealing with low T and symptoms. If bulking is the goal, blasting testosterone directly makes more sense than going the medical TRT route. If staying lean is what you want (and that's you), head to the r/fitness wiki, study up on proper dieting and macro maintenance, and consider something to raise your T.
Here's what I'd suggest.
Just want to stay lean? Pick up enclomiphene, HCG, and some arimistane. None of these are regulated in the US. Figure on boosting your current T values by roughly 50%. Your body will then naturally direct more energy toward protein synthesis and less toward storing fat. You can stop whenever you like with no worries.
Enclomiphene and HCG don't shut down your HPTA. They cooperate with it, signaling it to produce a bit more. Your balls and cannon remain at 100% efficiency, and you're free to stop at any point... the moment you start TRT, your HPTA shuts down, you can't have children, your sperm count is destroyed, and it takes months to restart everything and get back to baseline
Cheers, bud
That said, I've only stumbled on this a few times, so I can't say with certainty that it holds up.
There's such a flood of information out there, and hormone responses differ from person to person at least somewhat.
I'd appreciate hearing from folks who actually run enclo. I haven't touched it or trt myself.
Thanks ahead of time.
What makes reduced IGF1 inherently a problem? After all, it isn't something you'd want running high over an extended stretch either.Mr. Blonde said:
From what I've come across, enclomiphene has one downside: it brings igf-1 down. So perhaps run it in cycles, or throw in hgh now and then to bring it back up?wildweasel said:
bayardtrustin said:
I’ve spent the last 2 months doing strength work with a personal trainer. I’m not chasing a bulk; what I want is to add definition without losing leanness.
Labs came back recently, and here’s what they show:
Testosterone: 865 ng/dL
SHBG: 90.6 nmol/L
Free Testosterone: 96.3 pg/mL
My understanding is that TRT generally substitutes for what your body makes on its own, so I’m hesitant — my total testosterone looks fairly high as it stands.
With those figures and the goals I have, is TRT even something worth looking into? Or is this a situation where the downsides would be bigger than any upside?
I’d like to hear from people who’ve been through this.
♂ M51 5’10’’ SW:280 CW:177 GW:150 BF:21.4 BFG:15
Jan 15 baseline values for me:
Total T: 644
Free T: 78
Estradiol: 29
Starting Feb 13, I ran Enclomiphene Citrate at 25mg daily alongside HCG at 250 iu on alternate days.
Bloodwork from March 17:
Total T: 1124
Free T: 156
Estradiol: 46 (elevated, felt overly sentimental)
On March 18 I introduced Arimistane at 25mg twice per day.
Bloodwork from March 18:
Total T: 1038
Free T: 138
Estradiol: 30 (back to roughly baseline)
Unlike TRT, Enclomiphene and HCG won't suppress your HPTA. Given what you're aiming for, TRT isn't something I'd suggest. The figures above are honestly near the top of the range you'd see from a TRT doctor putting someone on 200mg of testosterone per week... assuming you're a healthy male (which you are), you can reach those same numbers without wrecking your hormonal axis, all while supporting your fat loss goals.
TRT should really only be considered if you're dealing with low T and symptoms. If bulking is the goal, blasting testosterone directly makes more sense than going the medical TRT route. If staying lean is what you want (and that's you), head to the r/fitness wiki, study up on proper dieting and macro maintenance, and consider something to raise your T.
Here's what I'd suggest.
Just want to stay lean? Pick up enclomiphene, HCG, and some arimistane. None of these are regulated in the US. Figure on boosting your current T values by roughly 50%. Your body will then naturally direct more energy toward protein synthesis and less toward storing fat. You can stop whenever you like with no worries.
Enclomiphene and HCG don't shut down your HPTA. They cooperate with it, signaling it to produce a bit more. Your balls and cannon remain at 100% efficiency, and you're free to stop at any point... the moment you start TRT, your HPTA shuts down, you can't have children, your sperm count is destroyed, and it takes months to restart everything and get back to baseline
Cheers, bud
That said, I've only stumbled on this a few times, so I can't say with certainty that it holds up.
There's such a flood of information out there, and hormone responses differ from person to person at least somewhat.
I'd appreciate hearing from folks who actually run enclo. I haven't touched it or trt myself.
Thanks ahead of time.
My own protocol is enclomiphene at 12.5mg, taken 3x/week. That pushed my total T slightly past 1000, free T above 160pg/mL, and E2 beyond 48 — yet I had zero signs of elevated estrogen. Given that, cutting my enclomiphene dose appeals to me far more than reaching for an AI.
wildweasel
Explorer
I had IGF1 tested on Jan 15 and again on March 18, and here is what came back:Mr. Blonde said:
From what I've come across, enclomiphene has one downside: it brings igf-1 down. So perhaps run it in cycles, or throw in hgh now and then to bring it back up?wildweasel said:
bayardtrustin said:
I’ve spent the last 2 months doing strength work with a personal trainer. I’m not chasing a bulk; what I want is to add definition without losing leanness.
Labs came back recently, and here’s what they show:
Testosterone: 865 ng/dL
SHBG: 90.6 nmol/L
Free Testosterone: 96.3 pg/mL
My understanding is that TRT generally substitutes for what your body makes on its own, so I’m hesitant — my total testosterone looks fairly high as it stands.
With those figures and the goals I have, is TRT even something worth looking into? Or is this a situation where the downsides would be bigger than any upside?
I’d like to hear from people who’ve been through this.
♂ M51 5’10’’ SW:280 CW:177 GW:150 BF:21.4 BFG:15
Jan 15 baseline values for me:
Total T: 644
Free T: 78
Estradiol: 29
Starting Feb 13, I ran Enclomiphene Citrate at 25mg daily alongside HCG at 250 iu on alternate days.
Bloodwork from March 17:
Total T: 1124
Free T: 156
Estradiol: 46 (elevated, felt overly sentimental)
On March 18 I introduced Arimistane at 25mg twice per day.
Bloodwork from March 18:
Total T: 1038
Free T: 138
Estradiol: 30 (back to roughly baseline)
Unlike TRT, Enclomiphene and HCG won't suppress your HPTA. Given what you're aiming for, TRT isn't something I'd suggest. The figures above are honestly near the top of the range you'd see from a TRT doctor putting someone on 200mg of testosterone per week... assuming you're a healthy male (which you are), you can reach those same numbers without wrecking your hormonal axis, all while supporting your fat loss goals.
TRT should really only be considered if you're dealing with low T and symptoms. If bulking is the goal, blasting testosterone directly makes more sense than going the medical TRT route. If staying lean is what you want (and that's you), head to the r/fitness wiki, study up on proper dieting and macro maintenance, and consider something to raise your T.
Here's what I'd suggest.
Just want to stay lean? Pick up enclomiphene, HCG, and some arimistane. None of these are regulated in the US. Figure on boosting your current T values by roughly 50%. Your body will then naturally direct more energy toward protein synthesis and less toward storing fat. You can stop whenever you like with no worries.
Enclomiphene and HCG don't shut down your HPTA. They cooperate with it, signaling it to produce a bit more. Your balls and cannon remain at 100% efficiency, and you're free to stop at any point... the moment you start TRT, your HPTA shuts down, you can't have children, your sperm count is destroyed, and it takes months to restart everything and get back to baseline
Cheers, bud
That said, I've only stumbled on this a few times, so I can't say with certainty that it holds up.
There's such a flood of information out there, and hormone responses differ from person to person at least somewhat.
I'd appreciate hearing from folks who actually run enclo. I haven't touched it or trt myself.
Thanks ahead of time.
Jan 15:
- IGF1: 113
- Z-score: -0.05
March 18:
- IGF1 143
- Z-Score: 0.00
My own read is that this change in my igf levels probably means very little, and is more likely tied to a change in my training routine than to enclomiphene.
With that said, hgh is something I would really like to add; the problem is finding it at a reasonable price, and it tends to sell out fast.
IGF1 is a driver of muscle growth, so for myself I would pick a higher "healthy" IGF1 level over a lower "healhty" oneHabibibi said:
What makes reduced IGF1 inherently a problem? After all, it isn't something you'd want running high over an extended stretch either.Mr. Blonde said:
From what I've come across, enclomiphene has one downside: it brings igf-1 down. So perhaps run it in cycles, or throw in hgh now and then to bring it back up?wildweasel said:
bayardtrustin said:
I’ve spent the last 2 months doing strength work with a personal trainer. I’m not chasing a bulk; what I want is to add definition without losing leanness.
Labs came back recently, and here’s what they show:
Testosterone: 865 ng/dL
SHBG: 90.6 nmol/L
Free Testosterone: 96.3 pg/mL
My understanding is that TRT generally substitutes for what your body makes on its own, so I’m hesitant — my total testosterone looks fairly high as it stands.
With those figures and the goals I have, is TRT even something worth looking into? Or is this a situation where the downsides would be bigger than any upside?
I’d like to hear from people who’ve been through this.
♂ M51 5’10’’ SW:280 CW:177 GW:150 BF:21.4 BFG:15
Jan 15 baseline values for me:
Total T: 644
Free T: 78
Estradiol: 29
Starting Feb 13, I ran Enclomiphene Citrate at 25mg daily alongside HCG at 250 iu on alternate days.
Bloodwork from March 17:
Total T: 1124
Free T: 156
Estradiol: 46 (elevated, felt overly sentimental)
On March 18 I introduced Arimistane at 25mg twice per day.
Bloodwork from March 18:
Total T: 1038
Free T: 138
Estradiol: 30 (back to roughly baseline)
Unlike TRT, Enclomiphene and HCG won't suppress your HPTA. Given what you're aiming for, TRT isn't something I'd suggest. The figures above are honestly near the top of the range you'd see from a TRT doctor putting someone on 200mg of testosterone per week... assuming you're a healthy male (which you are), you can reach those same numbers without wrecking your hormonal axis, all while supporting your fat loss goals.
TRT should really only be considered if you're dealing with low T and symptoms. If bulking is the goal, blasting testosterone directly makes more sense than going the medical TRT route. If staying lean is what you want (and that's you), head to the r/fitness wiki, study up on proper dieting and macro maintenance, and consider something to raise your T.
Here's what I'd suggest.
Just want to stay lean? Pick up enclomiphene, HCG, and some arimistane. None of these are regulated in the US. Figure on boosting your current T values by roughly 50%. Your body will then naturally direct more energy toward protein synthesis and less toward storing fat. You can stop whenever you like with no worries.
Enclomiphene and HCG don't shut down your HPTA. They cooperate with it, signaling it to produce a bit more. Your balls and cannon remain at 100% efficiency, and you're free to stop at any point... the moment you start TRT, your HPTA shuts down, you can't have children, your sperm count is destroyed, and it takes months to restart everything and get back to baseline
Cheers, bud
That said, I've only stumbled on this a few times, so I can't say with certainty that it holds up.
There's such a flood of information out there, and hormone responses differ from person to person at least somewhat.
I'd appreciate hearing from folks who actually run enclo. I haven't touched it or trt myself.
Thanks ahead of time.
My own protocol is enclomiphene at 12.5mg, taken 3x/week. That pushed my total T slightly past 1000, free T above 160pg/mL, and E2 beyond 48 — yet I had zero signs of elevated estrogen. Given that, cutting my enclomiphene dose appeals to me far more than reaching for an AI.
HGH shifts part of your metabolism toward muscle growth and away from fat storage, but when HGH levels rise, the liver begins making IGF1, and it is IGF1 that actually pushes the muscle synthesis pathways.
Super-physiological IGF1 levels are recognized to cause disease. Health care professionals start paying attention once Z-Score levels go above +4 (4 std deviations above population mean)
Body builders deliberately raise IGF1 for limited stretches in order to drive muscle growth.
When IGF1 levels are lower, building muscle becomes harder.
Still, as with anything in the body, saying "more/less is better" does not hold up; it is all a balancing act, and what someone wants depends on their goals.
Right — if you're not deficient and you're not a bodybuilder, chasing elevated igf1 for extended periods doesn't really add up. Over time, acromegaly tends to emerge once the z-score reaches roughly +3, and I'd avoid exceeding +4. Treating igf1 as a target in itself doesn't strike me as sensible, unless your levels are either too high or too low.wildweasel said:
I had IGF1 tested on Jan 15 and again on March 18, and here is what came back:Mr. Blonde said:
From what I've come across, enclomiphene has one downside: it brings igf-1 down. So perhaps run it in cycles, or throw in hgh now and then to bring it back up?wildweasel said:
bayardtrustin said:
I’ve spent the last 2 months doing strength work with a personal trainer. I’m not chasing a bulk; what I want is to add definition without losing leanness.
Labs came back recently, and here’s what they show:
Testosterone: 865 ng/dL
SHBG: 90.6 nmol/L
Free Testosterone: 96.3 pg/mL
My understanding is that TRT generally substitutes for what your body makes on its own, so I’m hesitant — my total testosterone looks fairly high as it stands.
With those figures and the goals I have, is TRT even something worth looking into? Or is this a situation where the downsides would be bigger than any upside?
I’d like to hear from people who’ve been through this.
♂ M51 5’10’’ SW:280 CW:177 GW:150 BF:21.4 BFG:15
Jan 15 baseline values for me:
Total T: 644
Free T: 78
Estradiol: 29
Starting Feb 13, I ran Enclomiphene Citrate at 25mg daily alongside HCG at 250 iu on alternate days.
Bloodwork from March 17:
Total T: 1124
Free T: 156
Estradiol: 46 (elevated, felt overly sentimental)
On March 18 I introduced Arimistane at 25mg twice per day.
Bloodwork from March 18:
Total T: 1038
Free T: 138
Estradiol: 30 (back to roughly baseline)
Unlike TRT, Enclomiphene and HCG won't suppress your HPTA. Given what you're aiming for, TRT isn't something I'd suggest. The figures above are honestly near the top of the range you'd see from a TRT doctor putting someone on 200mg of testosterone per week... assuming you're a healthy male (which you are), you can reach those same numbers without wrecking your hormonal axis, all while supporting your fat loss goals.
TRT should really only be considered if you're dealing with low T and symptoms. If bulking is the goal, blasting testosterone directly makes more sense than going the medical TRT route. If staying lean is what you want (and that's you), head to the r/fitness wiki, study up on proper dieting and macro maintenance, and consider something to raise your T.
Here's what I'd suggest.
Just want to stay lean? Pick up enclomiphene, HCG, and some arimistane. None of these are regulated in the US. Figure on boosting your current T values by roughly 50%. Your body will then naturally direct more energy toward protein synthesis and less toward storing fat. You can stop whenever you like with no worries.
Enclomiphene and HCG don't shut down your HPTA. They cooperate with it, signaling it to produce a bit more. Your balls and cannon remain at 100% efficiency, and you're free to stop at any point... the moment you start TRT, your HPTA shuts down, you can't have children, your sperm count is destroyed, and it takes months to restart everything and get back to baseline
Cheers, bud
That said, I've only stumbled on this a few times, so I can't say with certainty that it holds up.
There's such a flood of information out there, and hormone responses differ from person to person at least somewhat.
I'd appreciate hearing from folks who actually run enclo. I haven't touched it or trt myself.
Thanks ahead of time.
Jan 15:
- IGF1: 113
- Z-score: -0.05
March 18:
- IGF1 143
- Z-Score: 0.00
My own read is that this change in my igf levels probably means very little, and is more likely tied to a change in my training routine than to enclomiphene.
With that said, hgh is something I would really like to add; the problem is finding it at a reasonable price, and it tends to sell out fast.
IGF1 is a driver of muscle growth, so for myself I would pick a higher "healthy" IGF1 level over a lower "healhty" oneHabibibi said:
What makes reduced IGF1 inherently a problem? After all, it isn't something you'd want running high over an extended stretch either.Mr. Blonde said:
From what I've come across, enclomiphene has one downside: it brings igf-1 down. So perhaps run it in cycles, or throw in hgh now and then to bring it back up?wildweasel said:
bayardtrustin said:
I’ve spent the last 2 months doing strength work with a personal trainer. I’m not chasing a bulk; what I want is to add definition without losing leanness.
Labs came back recently, and here’s what they show:
Testosterone: 865 ng/dL
SHBG: 90.6 nmol/L
Free Testosterone: 96.3 pg/mL
My understanding is that TRT generally substitutes for what your body makes on its own, so I’m hesitant — my total testosterone looks fairly high as it stands.
With those figures and the goals I have, is TRT even something worth looking into? Or is this a situation where the downsides would be bigger than any upside?
I’d like to hear from people who’ve been through this.
♂ M51 5’10’’ SW:280 CW:177 GW:150 BF:21.4 BFG:15
Jan 15 baseline values for me:
Total T: 644
Free T: 78
Estradiol: 29
Starting Feb 13, I ran Enclomiphene Citrate at 25mg daily alongside HCG at 250 iu on alternate days.
Bloodwork from March 17:
Total T: 1124
Free T: 156
Estradiol: 46 (elevated, felt overly sentimental)
On March 18 I introduced Arimistane at 25mg twice per day.
Bloodwork from March 18:
Total T: 1038
Free T: 138
Estradiol: 30 (back to roughly baseline)
Unlike TRT, Enclomiphene and HCG won't suppress your HPTA. Given what you're aiming for, TRT isn't something I'd suggest. The figures above are honestly near the top of the range you'd see from a TRT doctor putting someone on 200mg of testosterone per week... assuming you're a healthy male (which you are), you can reach those same numbers without wrecking your hormonal axis, all while supporting your fat loss goals.
TRT should really only be considered if you're dealing with low T and symptoms. If bulking is the goal, blasting testosterone directly makes more sense than going the medical TRT route. If staying lean is what you want (and that's you), head to the r/fitness wiki, study up on proper dieting and macro maintenance, and consider something to raise your T.
Here's what I'd suggest.
Just want to stay lean? Pick up enclomiphene, HCG, and some arimistane. None of these are regulated in the US. Figure on boosting your current T values by roughly 50%. Your body will then naturally direct more energy toward protein synthesis and less toward storing fat. You can stop whenever you like with no worries.
Enclomiphene and HCG don't shut down your HPTA. They cooperate with it, signaling it to produce a bit more. Your balls and cannon remain at 100% efficiency, and you're free to stop at any point... the moment you start TRT, your HPTA shuts down, you can't have children, your sperm count is destroyed, and it takes months to restart everything and get back to baseline
Cheers, bud
That said, I've only stumbled on this a few times, so I can't say with certainty that it holds up.
There's such a flood of information out there, and hormone responses differ from person to person at least somewhat.
I'd appreciate hearing from folks who actually run enclo. I haven't touched it or trt myself.
Thanks ahead of time.
My own protocol is enclomiphene at 12.5mg, taken 3x/week. That pushed my total T slightly past 1000, free T above 160pg/mL, and E2 beyond 48 — yet I had zero signs of elevated estrogen. Given that, cutting my enclomiphene dose appeals to me far more than reaching for an AI.
HGH shifts part of your metabolism toward muscle growth and away from fat storage, but when HGH levels rise, the liver begins making IGF1, and it is IGF1 that actually pushes the muscle synthesis pathways.
Super-physiological IGF1 levels are recognized to cause disease. Health care professionals start paying attention once Z-Score levels go above +4 (4 std deviations above population mean)
Body builders deliberately raise IGF1 for limited stretches in order to drive muscle growth.
When IGF1 levels are lower, building muscle becomes harder.
Still, as with anything in the body, saying "more/less is better" does not hold up; it is all a balancing act, and what someone wants depends on their goals.
wildweasel
Explorer
The igf1-lr3 peptide on its own makes me uneasy, since there's no way to track it through bloodwork — an igf1 test won't pick it up. Given the dangers you brought up, organ enlargement could already be underway before you'd have any clue. On top of that, trustworthy dosing guidelines are basically nonexistent; all you get is random guys on reddit sharing their personal amounts. As far as medical research goes, its only studied application seems to involve culturing human cells in agar dishes or something similar — no one has ever looked into proper dosing schedules.Habibibi said:
Right — if you're not deficient and you're not a bodybuilder, chasing elevated igf1 for extended periods doesn't really add up. Over time, acromegaly tends to emerge once the z-score reaches roughly +3, and I'd avoid exceeding +4. Treating igf1 as a target in itself doesn't strike me as sensible, unless your levels are either too high or too low.wildweasel said:
I had IGF1 tested on Jan 15 and again on March 18, and here is what came back:Mr. Blonde said:
From what I've come across, enclomiphene has one downside: it brings igf-1 down. So perhaps run it in cycles, or throw in hgh now and then to bring it back up?wildweasel said:
bayardtrustin said:
I’ve spent the last 2 months doing strength work with a personal trainer. I’m not chasing a bulk; what I want is to add definition without losing leanness.
Labs came back recently, and here’s what they show:
Testosterone: 865 ng/dL
SHBG: 90.6 nmol/L
Free Testosterone: 96.3 pg/mL
My understanding is that TRT generally substitutes for what your body makes on its own, so I’m hesitant — my total testosterone looks fairly high as it stands.
With those figures and the goals I have, is TRT even something worth looking into? Or is this a situation where the downsides would be bigger than any upside?
I’d like to hear from people who’ve been through this.
♂ M51 5’10’’ SW:280 CW:177 GW:150 BF:21.4 BFG:15
Jan 15 baseline values for me:
Total T: 644
Free T: 78
Estradiol: 29
Starting Feb 13, I ran Enclomiphene Citrate at 25mg daily alongside HCG at 250 iu on alternate days.
Bloodwork from March 17:
Total T: 1124
Free T: 156
Estradiol: 46 (elevated, felt overly sentimental)
On March 18 I introduced Arimistane at 25mg twice per day.
Bloodwork from March 18:
Total T: 1038
Free T: 138
Estradiol: 30 (back to roughly baseline)
Unlike TRT, Enclomiphene and HCG won't suppress your HPTA. Given what you're aiming for, TRT isn't something I'd suggest. The figures above are honestly near the top of the range you'd see from a TRT doctor putting someone on 200mg of testosterone per week... assuming you're a healthy male (which you are), you can reach those same numbers without wrecking your hormonal axis, all while supporting your fat loss goals.
TRT should really only be considered if you're dealing with low T and symptoms. If bulking is the goal, blasting testosterone directly makes more sense than going the medical TRT route. If staying lean is what you want (and that's you), head to the r/fitness wiki, study up on proper dieting and macro maintenance, and consider something to raise your T.
Here's what I'd suggest.
Just want to stay lean? Pick up enclomiphene, HCG, and some arimistane. None of these are regulated in the US. Figure on boosting your current T values by roughly 50%. Your body will then naturally direct more energy toward protein synthesis and less toward storing fat. You can stop whenever you like with no worries.
Enclomiphene and HCG don't shut down your HPTA. They cooperate with it, signaling it to produce a bit more. Your balls and cannon remain at 100% efficiency, and you're free to stop at any point... the moment you start TRT, your HPTA shuts down, you can't have children, your sperm count is destroyed, and it takes months to restart everything and get back to baseline
Cheers, bud
That said, I've only stumbled on this a few times, so I can't say with certainty that it holds up.
There's such a flood of information out there, and hormone responses differ from person to person at least somewhat.
I'd appreciate hearing from folks who actually run enclo. I haven't touched it or trt myself.
Thanks ahead of time.
Jan 15:
- IGF1: 113
- Z-score: -0.05
March 18:
- IGF1 143
- Z-Score: 0.00
My own read is that this change in my igf levels probably means very little, and is more likely tied to a change in my training routine than to enclomiphene.
With that said, hgh is something I would really like to add; the problem is finding it at a reasonable price, and it tends to sell out fast.
IGF1 is a driver of muscle growth, so for myself I would pick a higher "healthy" IGF1 level over a lower "healhty" oneHabibibi said:
What makes reduced IGF1 inherently a problem? After all, it isn't something you'd want running high over an extended stretch either.Mr. Blonde said:
From what I've come across, enclomiphene has one downside: it brings igf-1 down. So perhaps run it in cycles, or throw in hgh now and then to bring it back up?wildweasel said:
bayardtrustin said:
I’ve spent the last 2 months doing strength work with a personal trainer. I’m not chasing a bulk; what I want is to add definition without losing leanness.
Labs came back recently, and here’s what they show:
Testosterone: 865 ng/dL
SHBG: 90.6 nmol/L
Free Testosterone: 96.3 pg/mL
My understanding is that TRT generally substitutes for what your body makes on its own, so I’m hesitant — my total testosterone looks fairly high as it stands.
With those figures and the goals I have, is TRT even something worth looking into? Or is this a situation where the downsides would be bigger than any upside?
I’d like to hear from people who’ve been through this.
♂ M51 5’10’’ SW:280 CW:177 GW:150 BF:21.4 BFG:15
Jan 15 baseline values for me:
Total T: 644
Free T: 78
Estradiol: 29
Starting Feb 13, I ran Enclomiphene Citrate at 25mg daily alongside HCG at 250 iu on alternate days.
Bloodwork from March 17:
Total T: 1124
Free T: 156
Estradiol: 46 (elevated, felt overly sentimental)
On March 18 I introduced Arimistane at 25mg twice per day.
Bloodwork from March 18:
Total T: 1038
Free T: 138
Estradiol: 30 (back to roughly baseline)
Unlike TRT, Enclomiphene and HCG won't suppress your HPTA. Given what you're aiming for, TRT isn't something I'd suggest. The figures above are honestly near the top of the range you'd see from a TRT doctor putting someone on 200mg of testosterone per week... assuming you're a healthy male (which you are), you can reach those same numbers without wrecking your hormonal axis, all while supporting your fat loss goals.
TRT should really only be considered if you're dealing with low T and symptoms. If bulking is the goal, blasting testosterone directly makes more sense than going the medical TRT route. If staying lean is what you want (and that's you), head to the r/fitness wiki, study up on proper dieting and macro maintenance, and consider something to raise your T.
Here's what I'd suggest.
Just want to stay lean? Pick up enclomiphene, HCG, and some arimistane. None of these are regulated in the US. Figure on boosting your current T values by roughly 50%. Your body will then naturally direct more energy toward protein synthesis and less toward storing fat. You can stop whenever you like with no worries.
Enclomiphene and HCG don't shut down your HPTA. They cooperate with it, signaling it to produce a bit more. Your balls and cannon remain at 100% efficiency, and you're free to stop at any point... the moment you start TRT, your HPTA shuts down, you can't have children, your sperm count is destroyed, and it takes months to restart everything and get back to baseline
Cheers, bud
That said, I've only stumbled on this a few times, so I can't say with certainty that it holds up.
There's such a flood of information out there, and hormone responses differ from person to person at least somewhat.
I'd appreciate hearing from folks who actually run enclo. I haven't touched it or trt myself.
Thanks ahead of time.
My own protocol is enclomiphene at 12.5mg, taken 3x/week. That pushed my total T slightly past 1000, free T above 160pg/mL, and E2 beyond 48 — yet I had zero signs of elevated estrogen. Given that, cutting my enclomiphene dose appeals to me far more than reaching for an AI.
HGH shifts part of your metabolism toward muscle growth and away from fat storage, but when HGH levels rise, the liver begins making IGF1, and it is IGF1 that actually pushes the muscle synthesis pathways.
Super-physiological IGF1 levels are recognized to cause disease. Health care professionals start paying attention once Z-Score levels go above +4 (4 std deviations above population mean)
Body builders deliberately raise IGF1 for limited stretches in order to drive muscle growth.
When IGF1 levels are lower, building muscle becomes harder.
Still, as with anything in the body, saying "more/less is better" does not hold up; it is all a balancing act, and what someone wants depends on their goals.
Nattybynature
Explorer
Since your testosterone is already in a good range, I don’t see the need unless you’re aiming for significant mass. You could explore other routes for recomp instead. Options like some hgh and Reta. Or even a short run of mots c.bayardtrustin said:
I’ve spent the last 2 months doing strength work with a personal trainer. I’m not chasing a bulk; what I want is to add definition without losing leanness.
Labs came back recently, and here’s what they show:
Testosterone: 865 ng/dL
SHBG: 90.6 nmol/L
Free Testosterone: 96.3 pg/mL
My understanding is that TRT generally substitutes for what your body makes on its own, so I’m hesitant — my total testosterone looks fairly high as it stands.
With those figures and the goals I have, is TRT even something worth looking into? Or is this a situation where the downsides would be bigger than any upside?
I’d like to hear from people who’ve been through this.
♂ M51 5’10’’ SW:280 CW:177 GW:150 BF:21.4 BFG:15
RamCummins6.7
Explorer
At your age, those numbers are fantastic. For sure, I'd explore HGH or peptides to help shed subcutaneous and visceral fat.
hahahahaahhaahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha once more the scare tactics about testosterone
250 test will get you to at least 1k ng/dl, and if you stack it with HCG or HMG plus a solid PCT you’ll be totally fine. Going above 350 usually means you need more estrogen control and extra ancillaries, but even 500 test for 12-20 weeks won’t leave you infertile. Go read up on it
Smiter
Explorer
That is my guy!!!!timfa said:
hahahahaahhaahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha once more the scare tactics about testosterone
Gt3294a
Explorer
T
yeah, if this weren't the case, my kids would be furious, and then it just vanished out of nowhere.timfa said:
hahahahaahhaahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha once more the scare tactics about testosterone