One treatment first: TRT, HGH, or a secretagogue?

[Cannonball72]

BlueDog55 said:

fatjacked said:

Cannonball72 said:

A couple of honest thoughts.

Way more muscle needs to go on than you think you want. Especially given that you are talking about being naturally nearly hypogonadal while considering test/hgh/secretogogues.

Given the low production, Enclomophene mono therapy is worth considering. Test injections come next - the gold standard, and for good reason. Lowest effective dose. Two viable TRT interventions, often combined.

Mood/emotion issues that come with low test are helped by test injections, but physique alone is not something they fix. My own protocol is test .36mg eod, enclomphene 25mg1x/wk, HCG 150iu 1x wk. No AIs needed, no skin problems, no hair loss. High test and free test numbers.

Re: HGH and/or secretegogues. All of them work. The caveat - and this loops back to the first paragraph - is that none of them are magic. The work has to be done. A committed nutrition and fitness program is when these interventions shine. Otherwise, garbage in, garbage out.

At your age, secretogogues should be fine. For long runs HGH up to 4iu, 2-3IU is generally ok. Blood work done first, then let how much assistance you want drive the decision. Is the aim to max out your natural system, or to pick the specific level you want to carry? Secretegogues cover the first aim, HGH the second. I’m 53 and run a tesa/ipa 6:1 blend 5/2, very happy with this.

Reta/Tirz and etc. are closer to miracle peptides. How much work the individual puts in matters less, though the outcome is still heavily shaped by moving to quality nutrition and fitness.

All that said. Your actual question - TRT is where the foundation lies. Start here. No need to rush into the rest, the time will come. Do TRT first and see how you respond. The next intervention can be considered once you are settled.

Apologies if anything got misinterpreted. Coming across as a know it all is not my intention. Yet I have been through it and found what really works for me, and the stories of people on this site would show a very common pattern behind what I shared.

Regular blood work is a must.

Where the idea came from that I am not doing the work, or do not want to, I am not sure. My post seemed pretty clear - the gym routine is really solid, I am very strong compared to the general population, I was simply also fat. Now that I am bordering-on-not-fat and thinking about what maintenance looks like, the options are what I am looking into.

On enclo vs. TRT, my reading leaves me with the impression that enclo has far less long term safety data, works but less well, and would leave me on the gray market managing it myself - versus TRT hopefully covered by my insurance. Fertility is also no longer a concern for me.

On that point about enclo having a lot less long term safety data - proper TRT has no risk attached, though an estrogen blocker is needed by some and blood donation by others.

Here is a decision point. Natural production stops with true TRT, and restarting it after a stop takes a long time. Enclo raises natural production instead, which is the argument for looking into it - low production that is still present being the ideal case. When I started TRT 10 yrs ago it was not an option; about 3 yrs ago the doc added it alongside test-c. With what I know now, having that option up front would have been my preference. That said, my own experience with test-c injections has been wonderful.

 

[Marct209]

Enclo was not on the table in my case - orals were advised against because I abused the shit out of my liver, and even after 8 years sober my liver panel was not great. TRT injections have been my route for over a year now, alongside a lower weekly dose of Tirz (6.25mg). I am 36 years old and would say I am in the best shape of my life.

Online you will get a million different answers from a million points of view, but the reality is that everyone is different. Something that works for one person may not work for you. The insurance route seems to be your plan, so booking a consultation with someone who takes your insurance is what I would recommend.

Insurance is not something I have, so UGL is where I eventually ended up, after learning everything I could from the clinic over a year.

 

[Cannonball72]

fatjacked said:

Turbo-Farmer said:

fatjacked said:

Turbo-Farmer said:

fatjacked said:

A fair amount of reading on the various options has gone into this, as the title suggests. Some background - male, early 40's, done having kids. With tirz I am approaching my goal weight, and am weighing options for recomp / maintenance and general health from here on. Heavy lifting 3-4 times per week, plus basketball and jogging for cardio; fitness and health goals are going reasonably well. High cholesterol in the past, now well controlled on a low dose statin. In a few weeks there is an appointment with a new PCP where some labs etc. will be requested.

The most recent labs were in October and read as follows:

Total test at 229

Free test at 5.3

FSH at 4.1

LH at 3.4

IGF-1 at 178 (no Z score given, but as far as I can tell that leaves me very close to the mean for my age)

Treatment could obviously be considered, my former doc said (he is not shy about the benefits of TRT and says he is on it himself), but he did not want to rush into it given my age and how relatively few symptoms there are, and thought my levels might bounce back a bit with weight loss etc. All of this came just before tirz started. More brain fog / difficulty focusing is something I feel at times, but as of now sleep, libido and so on are all fine.

As for goals, a ton of extra muscle is not the aim. Leaning out, focusing on recovery / preventing orthopedic and joint problems, and avoiding anything terribly risky for longevity or cancer are the aims.

So, assuming test is still below 300 on the next round of labs, my questions are:

1. If only one treatment were to be started first (TRT, HGH or GHRH/secretogoblin), which would you pick and why?

2. With goals like mine (gradual recomp / recovery / getting lean matters more than adding bulk), does the risk of HGH justify it over something like CJC/IPA? Getting on gear at any point is not the plan, so the options listed above are pretty much the menu for me in one combo or another. The other thing I wonder is whether starting test alone would do as much or more for me, since I am already active and have no major complaints.

3. Where long-term / higher dose HGH risks are a concern, is there any benefit in low dose / short cycles purely for recomp / fat loss? Say 1-2 iu across 4-6 weeks, once or twice a year?

Any other comments on how to think through the TRT/HGH/GHRH axis of options in general would be welcome as well.

Start with Enclomiphime, or HCG

With FHS that low, the signal telling your ledig cells to ramp up production is not getting through.

Zinc - with low zinc, your body cannot make T

You mentioned Tirz; losing weight too quickly puts you into starvation mode, and your FSH signaling stays muted until a calorie surplus is reached again.

Those numbers came from before tirz started. A surplus was definitely the case then, but I was also much fatter. As I understand it, obesity and starvation can both suppress FSH, and which one is worse on that front is not clear to me.

Preserving as much muscle as possible on tirz has been the focus, and the weight loss stayed fairly gradual. In a few weeks I will find out how those levels changed as a result, I guess.

both of them work on your hormone production.

With Enclomiphene or Hgc your FHS would go up, and what you can produce unaided would become measurable.

Your IGF would climb along with your T,

Get your T optimized first

But supposing enclo on its own got me to a level that was acceptable - holding that production would still mean staying on enclo indefinitely, right?

Maybe. Enclo opens up the chance to optimize the supplement stack and bring in heavy weight training (which is proven to raise natural test production) before injection shuts natural production down. Time to see results is bought, and options stay open. With injections, once you start you are pretty much on for life.

Heavy weight training here does not mean body building; progressive overload and forcing the body to adapt is what I am referring to specifically. Lifting has been part of my life for well over 10 yrs. For the first couple of years it helped my test numbers, then they started to drift down again. Very heavy is how I lift, though nobody would look at me and think body builder - just very fit.

 

[fatjacked]

Gt3294a said:

fatjacked said:

A fair amount of reading on the various options has gone into this, as the title suggests. Some background - male, early 40's, done having kids. With tirz I am approaching my goal weight, and am weighing options for recomp / maintenance and general health from here on. Heavy lifting 3-4 times per week, plus basketball and jogging for cardio; fitness and health goals are going reasonably well. High cholesterol in the past, now well controlled on a low dose statin. In a few weeks there is an appointment with a new PCP where some labs etc. will be requested.

The most recent labs were in October and read as follows:

Total test at 229

Free test at 5.3

FSH at 4.1

LH at 3.4

IGF-1 at 178 (no Z score given, but as far as I can tell that leaves me very close to the mean for my age)

Treatment could obviously be considered, my former doc said (he is not shy about the benefits of TRT and says he is on it himself), but he did not want to rush into it given my age and how relatively few symptoms there are, and thought my levels might bounce back a bit with weight loss etc. All of this came just before tirz started. More brain fog / difficulty focusing is something I feel at times, but as of now sleep, libido and so on are all fine.

As for goals, a ton of extra muscle is not the aim. Leaning out, focusing on recovery / preventing orthopedic and joint problems, and avoiding anything terribly risky for longevity or cancer are the aims.

So, assuming test is still below 300 on the next round of labs, my questions are:

1. If only one treatment were to be started first (TRT, HGH or GHRH/secretogoblin), which would you pick and why?

2. With goals like mine (gradual recomp / recovery / getting lean matters more than adding bulk), does the risk of HGH justify it over something like CJC/IPA? Getting on gear at any point is not the plan, so the options listed above are pretty much the menu for me in one combo or another. The other thing I wonder is whether starting test alone would do as much or more for me, since I am already active and have no major complaints.

3. Where long-term / higher dose HGH risks are a concern, is there any benefit in low dose / short cycles purely for recomp / fat loss? Say 1-2 iu across 4-6 weeks, once or twice a year?

Any other comments on how to think through the TRT/HGH/GHRH axis of options in general would be welcome as well.

What is your bfp? Without that number, things could change - if you were at 10 percent and stuck there, then for my money raising your test (say times 2-3) would dramatically outweigh pushing your Igf up to 300 (which, from your posts, looks like the most you would want to raise it). With your risk profile, saving the HGH (or tesa etc) is what I would do, for when Igf likely drops further around 50 years old and you are stuck trying to cut a bit. 2 cents from me, anyway.

A DEXA scale is not something I can get to right now, but I think I am around 26-27%.

 

[fatjacked]

Cannonball72 said:

fatjacked said:

Turbo-Farmer said:

fatjacked said:

Turbo-Farmer said:

fatjacked said:

A fair amount of reading on the various options has gone into this, as the title suggests. Some background - male, early 40's, done having kids. With tirz I am approaching my goal weight, and am weighing options for recomp / maintenance and general health from here on. Heavy lifting 3-4 times per week, plus basketball and jogging for cardio; fitness and health goals are going reasonably well. High cholesterol in the past, now well controlled on a low dose statin. In a few weeks there is an appointment with a new PCP where some labs etc. will be requested.

The most recent labs were in October and read as follows:

Total test at 229

Free test at 5.3

FSH at 4.1

LH at 3.4

IGF-1 at 178 (no Z score given, but as far as I can tell that leaves me very close to the mean for my age)

Treatment could obviously be considered, my former doc said (he is not shy about the benefits of TRT and says he is on it himself), but he did not want to rush into it given my age and how relatively few symptoms there are, and thought my levels might bounce back a bit with weight loss etc. All of this came just before tirz started. More brain fog / difficulty focusing is something I feel at times, but as of now sleep, libido and so on are all fine.

As for goals, a ton of extra muscle is not the aim. Leaning out, focusing on recovery / preventing orthopedic and joint problems, and avoiding anything terribly risky for longevity or cancer are the aims.

So, assuming test is still below 300 on the next round of labs, my questions are:

1. If only one treatment were to be started first (TRT, HGH or GHRH/secretogoblin), which would you pick and why?

2. With goals like mine (gradual recomp / recovery / getting lean matters more than adding bulk), does the risk of HGH justify it over something like CJC/IPA? Getting on gear at any point is not the plan, so the options listed above are pretty much the menu for me in one combo or another. The other thing I wonder is whether starting test alone would do as much or more for me, since I am already active and have no major complaints.

3. Where long-term / higher dose HGH risks are a concern, is there any benefit in low dose / short cycles purely for recomp / fat loss? Say 1-2 iu across 4-6 weeks, once or twice a year?

Any other comments on how to think through the TRT/HGH/GHRH axis of options in general would be welcome as well.

Start with Enclomiphime, or HCG

With FHS that low, the signal telling your ledig cells to ramp up production is not getting through.

Zinc - with low zinc, your body cannot make T

You mentioned Tirz; losing weight too quickly puts you into starvation mode, and your FSH signaling stays muted until a calorie surplus is reached again.

Those numbers came from before tirz started. A surplus was definitely the case then, but I was also much fatter. As I understand it, obesity and starvation can both suppress FSH, and which one is worse on that front is not clear to me.

Preserving as much muscle as possible on tirz has been the focus, and the weight loss stayed fairly gradual. In a few weeks I will find out how those levels changed as a result, I guess.

both of them work on your hormone production.

With Enclomiphene or Hgc your FHS would go up, and what you can produce unaided would become measurable.

Your IGF would climb along with your T,

Get your T optimized first

But supposing enclo on its own got me to a level that was acceptable - holding that production would still mean staying on enclo indefinitely, right?

Maybe. Enclo opens up the chance to optimize the supplement stack and bring in heavy weight training (which is proven to raise natural test production) before injection shuts natural production down. Time to see results is bought, and options stay open. With injections, once you start you are pretty much on for life.

Heavy weight training here does not mean body building; progressive overload and forcing the body to adapt is what I am referring to specifically. Lifting has been part of my life for well over 10 yrs. For the first couple of years it helped my test numbers, then they started to drift down again. Very heavy is how I lift, though nobody would look at me and think body builder - just very fit.

Cool. Adding heavy weight training to the routine of heavy weight training I already have - how should I go about that?

 

[Cannonball72]

fatjacked said:

Cannonball72 said:

fatjacked said:

Turbo-Farmer said:

fatjacked said:

Turbo-Farmer said:

fatjacked said:

A fair amount of reading on the various options has gone into this, as the title suggests. Some background - male, early 40's, done having kids. With tirz I am approaching my goal weight, and am weighing options for recomp / maintenance and general health from here on. Heavy lifting 3-4 times per week, plus basketball and jogging for cardio; fitness and health goals are going reasonably well. High cholesterol in the past, now well controlled on a low dose statin. In a few weeks there is an appointment with a new PCP where some labs etc. will be requested.

The most recent labs were in October and read as follows:

Total test at 229

Free test at 5.3

FSH at 4.1

LH at 3.4

IGF-1 at 178 (no Z score given, but as far as I can tell that leaves me very close to the mean for my age)

Treatment could obviously be considered, my former doc said (he is not shy about the benefits of TRT and says he is on it himself), but he did not want to rush into it given my age and how relatively few symptoms there are, and thought my levels might bounce back a bit with weight loss etc. All of this came just before tirz started. More brain fog / difficulty focusing is something I feel at times, but as of now sleep, libido and so on are all fine.

As for goals, a ton of extra muscle is not the aim. Leaning out, focusing on recovery / preventing orthopedic and joint problems, and avoiding anything terribly risky for longevity or cancer are the aims.

So, assuming test is still below 300 on the next round of labs, my questions are:

1. If only one treatment were to be started first (TRT, HGH or GHRH/secretogoblin), which would you pick and why?

2. With goals like mine (gradual recomp / recovery / getting lean matters more than adding bulk), does the risk of HGH justify it over something like CJC/IPA? Getting on gear at any point is not the plan, so the options listed above are pretty much the menu for me in one combo or another. The other thing I wonder is whether starting test alone would do as much or more for me, since I am already active and have no major complaints.

3. Where long-term / higher dose HGH risks are a concern, is there any benefit in low dose / short cycles purely for recomp / fat loss? Say 1-2 iu across 4-6 weeks, once or twice a year?

Any other comments on how to think through the TRT/HGH/GHRH axis of options in general would be welcome as well.

Start with Enclomiphime, or HCG

With FHS that low, the signal telling your ledig cells to ramp up production is not getting through.

Zinc - with low zinc, your body cannot make T

You mentioned Tirz; losing weight too quickly puts you into starvation mode, and your FSH signaling stays muted until a calorie surplus is reached again.

Those numbers came from before tirz started. A surplus was definitely the case then, but I was also much fatter. As I understand it, obesity and starvation can both suppress FSH, and which one is worse on that front is not clear to me.

Preserving as much muscle as possible on tirz has been the focus, and the weight loss stayed fairly gradual. In a few weeks I will find out how those levels changed as a result, I guess.

both of them work on your hormone production.

With Enclomiphene or Hgc your FHS would go up, and what you can produce unaided would become measurable.

Your IGF would climb along with your T,

Get your T optimized first

But supposing enclo on its own got me to a level that was acceptable - holding that production would still mean staying on enclo indefinitely, right?

Maybe. Enclo opens up the chance to optimize the supplement stack and bring in heavy weight training (which is proven to raise natural test production) before injection shuts natural production down. Time to see results is bought, and options stay open. With injections, once you start you are pretty much on for life.

Heavy weight training here does not mean body building; progressive overload and forcing the body to adapt is what I am referring to specifically. Lifting has been part of my life for well over 10 yrs. For the first couple of years it helped my test numbers, then they started to drift down again. Very heavy is how I lift, though nobody would look at me and think body builder - just very fit.

Cool. Adding heavy weight training to the routine of heavy weight training I already have - how should I go about that?

Take it personally if that is what you want. Or read it as the bigger picture requirements of the intervention you asked about.

In the final paragraph of what I laid out, it seems I may have missed something specific to your post. Holistically was how I was writing, not specifically.

And the sign-off from that post stands: apologies for anything misinterpreted, no wish to sound like a know it all, but this is something I have lived through and worked out what suits me, and reading the stories of people on this site would show you a very common pattern behind what I shared.

 

[fatjacked]

Taking anything personally from strangers on the internet is definitely not my habit. The pushback is because several posts in this thread came from you before the one I quoted, and in those I directly told you that I lift heavy.

Plenty of people arrive on this site with very basic questions and close to zero research behind them. Time was taken here to give more detail about my situation, because a fair bit has already been read on everything I asked about in my post (and on some things I did not ask about, like enclo and HGC). Those details were factored in by some people in their replies and not by others, which is fine - free advice usually means you get what you pay for.

 

[Cannonball72]

fatjacked said:

Taking anything personally from strangers on the internet is definitely not my habit. The pushback is because several posts in this thread came from you before the one I quoted, and in those I directly told you that I lift heavy.

Plenty of people arrive on this site with very basic questions and close to zero research behind them. Time was taken here to give more detail about my situation, because a fair bit has already been read on everything I asked about in my post (and on some things I did not ask about, like enclo and HGC). Those details were factored in by some people in their replies and not by others, which is fine - free advice usually means you get what you pay for.

Fair enough - just remember, your topic will be seen by many people who share the question but not your behavioral profile.

Generic to your post was how my reply(s) were written, though the intent was broad.

 

[Meritocrat]

When there is fat to lose, a few cycles of TRT combined with CJC/Ipa no DAC ought to be enough - or perhaps a single cycle if the weight is not excessive. Anastrazole, Enclo and HcG are what I would stock up on before starting, though. And once the fat is gone down to the level you want, keeping a maintenance dose of a GLP on hand while TRT alone does the recomp work is what I would do. Your test is low, like mine. Lower still in my case.

With fertility off your list, and weight training already happening, the question turns to getting the most out of the training you do. On that note, Testo is the only thing required. At your relatively young age GH is tricky. Benefits take a long time to appear, and with little fat weight to shed it would not be an optimal choice anyway.

IMO, the 800+ mark is where I would like my test levels, whatever method gets used. So GH is not something you need now, fat loss aside. Speculation on the rest is impossible without knowing your weight loss target. Willingness to keep pinning for the rest of your life is the deciding factor - if that is there, TRT should be the way to go.

 

[fatjacked]

Meritocrat said:

When there is fat to lose, a few cycles of TRT combined with CJC/Ipa no DAC ought to be enough - or perhaps a single cycle if the weight is not excessive. Anastrazole, Enclo and HcG are what I would stock up on before starting, though. And once the fat is gone down to the level you want, keeping a maintenance dose of a GLP on hand while TRT alone does the recomp work is what I would do. Your test is low, like mine. Lower still in my case.

With fertility off your list, and weight training already happening, the question turns to getting the most out of the training you do. On that note, Testo is the only thing required. At your relatively young age GH is tricky. Benefits take a long time to appear, and with little fat weight to shed it would not be an optimal choice anyway.

IMO, the 800+ mark is where I would like my test levels, whatever method gets used. So GH is not something you need now, fat loss aside. Speculation on the rest is impossible without knowing your weight loss target. Willingness to keep pinning for the rest of your life is the deciding factor - if that is there, TRT should be the way to go.

Thanks for the reply. To put concrete numbers on it: 6 feet tall, 265 at the start, 225 now, original GW 220, though 210 is what I am thinking of shooting for, recomping from there. A GLP for maintenance long term is the plan.

With the effects and risk profiles overlapping, my sense matched what you say above - test will probably hit the goals as well as or better than HGH, with better long term safety data too. TRT was never really considered before the last year or so, but the contemplation phase has been running a while and going on it long term would be fine with me, assuming the effects are as advertised.