One treatment first: TRT, HGH, or a secretagogue?

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fatjacked

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A fair amount of reading on the various options has gone into this, as the title suggests. Some background - male, early 40's, done having kids. With tirz I am approaching my goal weight, and am weighing options for recomp / maintenance and general health from here on. Heavy lifting 3-4 times per week, plus basketball and jogging for cardio; fitness and health goals are going reasonably well. High cholesterol in the past, now well controlled on a low dose statin. In a few weeks there is an appointment with a new PCP where some labs etc. will be requested.

The most recent labs were in October and read as follows:

Total test at 229

Free test at 5.3

FSH at 4.1

LH at 3.4

IGF-1 at 178 (no Z score given, but as far as I can tell that leaves me very close to the mean for my age)

Treatment could obviously be considered, my former doc said (he is not shy about the benefits of TRT and says he is on it himself), but he did not want to rush into it given my age and how relatively few symptoms there are, and thought my levels might bounce back a bit with weight loss etc. All of this came just before tirz started. More brain fog / difficulty focusing is something I feel at times, but as of now sleep, libido and so on are all fine.

As for goals, a ton of extra muscle is not the aim. Leaning out, focusing on recovery / preventing orthopedic and joint problems, and avoiding anything terribly risky for longevity or cancer are the aims.

So, assuming test is still below 300 on the next round of labs, my questions are:

1. If only one treatment were to be started first (TRT, HGH or GHRH/secretogoblin), which would you pick and why?

2. With goals like mine (gradual recomp / recovery / getting lean matters more than adding bulk), does the risk of HGH justify it over something like CJC/IPA? Getting on gear at any point is not the plan, so the options listed above are pretty much the menu for me in one combo or another. The other thing I wonder is whether starting test alone would do as much or more for me, since I am already active and have no major complaints.

3. Where long-term / higher dose HGH risks are a concern, is there any benefit in low dose / short cycles purely for recomp / fat loss? Say 1-2 iu across 4-6 weeks, once or twice a year?

Any other comments on how to think through the TRT/HGH/GHRH axis of options in general would be welcome as well.
 
3. If the risks of long-term / higher dose HGH are a worry, does any benefit come from low dose / short cycles purely for recomp / fat loss? Say 1-2 iu across 4-6 weeks, once or twice a year?

In that short a stretch, I doubt the results would show.
 
fatjacked said:

A fair amount of reading on the various options has gone into this, as the title suggests. Some background - male, early 40's, done having kids. With tirz I am approaching my goal weight, and am weighing options for recomp / maintenance and general health from here on. Heavy lifting 3-4 times per week, plus basketball and jogging for cardio; fitness and health goals are going reasonably well. High cholesterol in the past, now well controlled on a low dose statin. In a few weeks there is an appointment with a new PCP where some labs etc. will be requested.

The most recent labs were in October and read as follows:

Total test at 229

Free test at 5.3

FSH at 4.1

LH at 3.4

IGF-1 at 178 (no Z score given, but as far as I can tell that leaves me very close to the mean for my age)

Treatment could obviously be considered, my former doc said (he is not shy about the benefits of TRT and says he is on it himself), but he did not want to rush into it given my age and how relatively few symptoms there are, and thought my levels might bounce back a bit with weight loss etc. All of this came just before tirz started. More brain fog / difficulty focusing is something I feel at times, but as of now sleep, libido and so on are all fine.

As for goals, a ton of extra muscle is not the aim. Leaning out, focusing on recovery / preventing orthopedic and joint problems, and avoiding anything terribly risky for longevity or cancer are the aims.

So, assuming test is still below 300 on the next round of labs, my questions are:

1. If only one treatment were to be started first (TRT, HGH or GHRH/secretogoblin), which would you pick and why?

2. With goals like mine (gradual recomp / recovery / getting lean matters more than adding bulk), does the risk of HGH justify it over something like CJC/IPA? Getting on gear at any point is not the plan, so the options listed above are pretty much the menu for me in one combo or another. The other thing I wonder is whether starting test alone would do as much or more for me, since I am already active and have no major complaints.

3. Where long-term / higher dose HGH risks are a concern, is there any benefit in low dose / short cycles purely for recomp / fat loss? Say 1-2 iu across 4-6 weeks, once or twice a year?

Any other comments on how to think through the TRT/HGH/GHRH axis of options in general would be welcome as well.
Click to expand...
What to expect, along with the projections, is in a section near the bottom - scroll down to it

https://pep-pedia.org/peptides/hgh
 
A couple of honest thoughts.

Way more muscle needs to go on than you think you want. Especially given that you are talking about being naturally nearly hypogonadal while considering test/hgh/secretogogues.

Given the low production, Enclomophene mono therapy is worth considering. Test injections come next - the gold standard, and for good reason. Lowest effective dose. Two viable TRT interventions, often combined.

Mood/emotion issues that come with low test are helped by test injections, but physique alone is not something they fix. My own protocol is test .36mg eod, enclomphene 25mg1x/wk, HCG 150iu 1x wk. No AIs needed, no skin problems, no hair loss. High test and free test numbers.

Re: HGH and/or secretegogues. All of them work. The caveat - and this loops back to the first paragraph - is that none of them are magic. The work has to be done. A committed nutrition and fitness program is when these interventions shine. Otherwise, garbage in, garbage out.

At your age, secretogogues should be fine. For long runs HGH up to 4iu, 2-3IU is generally ok. Blood work done first, then let how much assistance you want drive the decision. Is the aim to max out your natural system, or to pick the specific level you want to carry? Secretegogues cover the first aim, HGH the second. I’m 53 and run a tesa/ipa 6:1 blend 5/2, very happy with this.

Reta/Tirz and etc. are closer to miracle peptides. How much work the individual puts in matters less, though the outcome is still heavily shaped by moving to quality nutrition and fitness.

All that said. Your actual question - TRT is where the foundation lies. Start here. No need to rush into the rest, the time will come. Do TRT first and see how you respond. The next intervention can be considered once you are settled.

Apologies if anything got misinterpreted. Coming across as a know it all is not my intention. Yet I have been through it and found what really works for me, and the stories of people on this site would show a very common pattern behind what I shared.

Regular blood work is a must.
 
fatjacked said:

A fair amount of reading on the various options has gone into this, as the title suggests. Some background - male, early 40's, done having kids. With tirz I am approaching my goal weight, and am weighing options for recomp / maintenance and general health from here on. Heavy lifting 3-4 times per week, plus basketball and jogging for cardio; fitness and health goals are going reasonably well. High cholesterol in the past, now well controlled on a low dose statin. In a few weeks there is an appointment with a new PCP where some labs etc. will be requested.

The most recent labs were in October and read as follows:

Total test at 229

Free test at 5.3

FSH at 4.1

LH at 3.4

IGF-1 at 178 (no Z score given, but as far as I can tell that leaves me very close to the mean for my age)

Treatment could obviously be considered, my former doc said (he is not shy about the benefits of TRT and says he is on it himself), but he did not want to rush into it given my age and how relatively few symptoms there are, and thought my levels might bounce back a bit with weight loss etc. All of this came just before tirz started. More brain fog / difficulty focusing is something I feel at times, but as of now sleep, libido and so on are all fine.

As for goals, a ton of extra muscle is not the aim. Leaning out, focusing on recovery / preventing orthopedic and joint problems, and avoiding anything terribly risky for longevity or cancer are the aims.

So, assuming test is still below 300 on the next round of labs, my questions are:

1. If only one treatment were to be started first (TRT, HGH or GHRH/secretogoblin), which would you pick and why?

2. With goals like mine (gradual recomp / recovery / getting lean matters more than adding bulk), does the risk of HGH justify it over something like CJC/IPA? Getting on gear at any point is not the plan, so the options listed above are pretty much the menu for me in one combo or another. The other thing I wonder is whether starting test alone would do as much or more for me, since I am already active and have no major complaints.

3. Where long-term / higher dose HGH risks are a concern, is there any benefit in low dose / short cycles purely for recomp / fat loss? Say 1-2 iu across 4-6 weeks, once or twice a year?

Any other comments on how to think through the TRT/HGH/GHRH axis of options in general would be welcome as well.
Click to expand...
Start with Enclomiphime, or HCG

With FHS that low, the signal telling your ledig cells to ramp up production is not getting through.

Zinc - with low zinc, your body cannot make T

You mentioned Tirz; losing weight too quickly puts you into starvation mode, and your FSH signaling stays muted until a calorie surplus is reached again.
 
fatjacked said:

A fair amount of reading on the various options has gone into this, as the title suggests. Some background - male, early 40's, done having kids. With tirz I am approaching my goal weight, and am weighing options for recomp / maintenance and general health from here on. Heavy lifting 3-4 times per week, plus basketball and jogging for cardio; fitness and health goals are going reasonably well. High cholesterol in the past, now well controlled on a low dose statin. In a few weeks there is an appointment with a new PCP where some labs etc. will be requested.

The most recent labs were in October and read as follows:

Total test at 229

Free test at 5.3

FSH at 4.1

LH at 3.4

IGF-1 at 178 (no Z score given, but as far as I can tell that leaves me very close to the mean for my age)

Treatment could obviously be considered, my former doc said (he is not shy about the benefits of TRT and says he is on it himself), but he did not want to rush into it given my age and how relatively few symptoms there are, and thought my levels might bounce back a bit with weight loss etc. All of this came just before tirz started. More brain fog / difficulty focusing is something I feel at times, but as of now sleep, libido and so on are all fine.

As for goals, a ton of extra muscle is not the aim. Leaning out, focusing on recovery / preventing orthopedic and joint problems, and avoiding anything terribly risky for longevity or cancer are the aims.

So, assuming test is still below 300 on the next round of labs, my questions are:

1. If only one treatment were to be started first (TRT, HGH or GHRH/secretogoblin), which would you pick and why?

2. With goals like mine (gradual recomp / recovery / getting lean matters more than adding bulk), does the risk of HGH justify it over something like CJC/IPA? Getting on gear at any point is not the plan, so the options listed above are pretty much the menu for me in one combo or another. The other thing I wonder is whether starting test alone would do as much or more for me, since I am already active and have no major complaints.

3. Where long-term / higher dose HGH risks are a concern, is there any benefit in low dose / short cycles purely for recomp / fat loss? Say 1-2 iu across 4-6 weeks, once or twice a year?

Any other comments on how to think through the TRT/HGH/GHRH axis of options in general would be welcome as well.
Click to expand...
My start was TRT, then Reta was added. When the peps land I am going to stack HGH secretagogues rather than somatropin . Klow goes on top of that for healing. The experienced people I refer too claim anything can be stacked on Test. In the correct amounts, obviously. That's just me though.
 
Turbo-Farmer said:

fatjacked said:

A fair amount of reading on the various options has gone into this, as the title suggests. Some background - male, early 40's, done having kids. With tirz I am approaching my goal weight, and am weighing options for recomp / maintenance and general health from here on. Heavy lifting 3-4 times per week, plus basketball and jogging for cardio; fitness and health goals are going reasonably well. High cholesterol in the past, now well controlled on a low dose statin. In a few weeks there is an appointment with a new PCP where some labs etc. will be requested.

The most recent labs were in October and read as follows:

Total test at 229

Free test at 5.3

FSH at 4.1

LH at 3.4

IGF-1 at 178 (no Z score given, but as far as I can tell that leaves me very close to the mean for my age)

Treatment could obviously be considered, my former doc said (he is not shy about the benefits of TRT and says he is on it himself), but he did not want to rush into it given my age and how relatively few symptoms there are, and thought my levels might bounce back a bit with weight loss etc. All of this came just before tirz started. More brain fog / difficulty focusing is something I feel at times, but as of now sleep, libido and so on are all fine.

As for goals, a ton of extra muscle is not the aim. Leaning out, focusing on recovery / preventing orthopedic and joint problems, and avoiding anything terribly risky for longevity or cancer are the aims.

So, assuming test is still below 300 on the next round of labs, my questions are:

1. If only one treatment were to be started first (TRT, HGH or GHRH/secretogoblin), which would you pick and why?

2. With goals like mine (gradual recomp / recovery / getting lean matters more than adding bulk), does the risk of HGH justify it over something like CJC/IPA? Getting on gear at any point is not the plan, so the options listed above are pretty much the menu for me in one combo or another. The other thing I wonder is whether starting test alone would do as much or more for me, since I am already active and have no major complaints.

3. Where long-term / higher dose HGH risks are a concern, is there any benefit in low dose / short cycles purely for recomp / fat loss? Say 1-2 iu across 4-6 weeks, once or twice a year?

Any other comments on how to think through the TRT/HGH/GHRH axis of options in general would be welcome as well.
Click to expand...
Start with Enclomiphime, or HCG

With FHS that low, the signal telling your ledig cells to ramp up production is not getting through.

Zinc - with low zinc, your body cannot make T

You mentioned Tirz; losing weight too quickly puts you into starvation mode, and your FSH signaling stays muted until a calorie surplus is reached again.
Click to expand...

Those numbers came from before tirz started. A surplus was definitely the case then, but I was also much fatter. As I understand it, obesity and starvation can both suppress FSH, and which one is worse on that front is not clear to me.

Preserving as much muscle as possible on tirz has been the focus, and the weight loss stayed fairly gradual. In a few weeks I will find out how those levels changed as a result, I guess.
 
Cannonball72 said:

A couple of honest thoughts.

Way more muscle needs to go on than you think you want. Especially given that you are talking about being naturally nearly hypogonadal while considering test/hgh/secretogogues.

Given the low production, Enclomophene mono therapy is worth considering. Test injections come next - the gold standard, and for good reason. Lowest effective dose. Two viable TRT interventions, often combined.

Mood/emotion issues that come with low test are helped by test injections, but physique alone is not something they fix. My own protocol is test .36mg eod, enclomphene 25mg1x/wk, HCG 150iu 1x wk. No AIs needed, no skin problems, no hair loss. High test and free test numbers.

Re: HGH and/or secretegogues. All of them work. The caveat - and this loops back to the first paragraph - is that none of them are magic. The work has to be done. A committed nutrition and fitness program is when these interventions shine. Otherwise, garbage in, garbage out.

At your age, secretogogues should be fine. For long runs HGH up to 4iu, 2-3IU is generally ok. Blood work done first, then let how much assistance you want drive the decision. Is the aim to max out your natural system, or to pick the specific level you want to carry? Secretegogues cover the first aim, HGH the second. I’m 53 and run a tesa/ipa 6:1 blend 5/2, very happy with this.

Reta/Tirz and etc. are closer to miracle peptides. How much work the individual puts in matters less, though the outcome is still heavily shaped by moving to quality nutrition and fitness.

All that said. Your actual question - TRT is where the foundation lies. Start here. No need to rush into the rest, the time will come. Do TRT first and see how you respond. The next intervention can be considered once you are settled.

Apologies if anything got misinterpreted. Coming across as a know it all is not my intention. Yet I have been through it and found what really works for me, and the stories of people on this site would show a very common pattern behind what I shared.

Regular blood work is a must.
Click to expand...

Where the idea came from that I am not doing the work, or do not want to, I am not sure. My post seemed pretty clear - the gym routine is really solid, I am very strong compared to the general population, I was simply also fat. Now that I am bordering-on-not-fat and thinking about what maintenance looks like, the options are what I am looking into.

On enclo vs. TRT, my reading leaves me with the impression that enclo has far less long term safety data, works but less well, and would leave me on the gray market managing it myself - versus TRT hopefully covered by my insurance. Fertility is also no longer a concern for me.
 
fatjacked said:

Turbo-Farmer said:

fatjacked said:

A fair amount of reading on the various options has gone into this, as the title suggests. Some background - male, early 40's, done having kids. With tirz I am approaching my goal weight, and am weighing options for recomp / maintenance and general health from here on. Heavy lifting 3-4 times per week, plus basketball and jogging for cardio; fitness and health goals are going reasonably well. High cholesterol in the past, now well controlled on a low dose statin. In a few weeks there is an appointment with a new PCP where some labs etc. will be requested.

The most recent labs were in October and read as follows:

Total test at 229

Free test at 5.3

FSH at 4.1

LH at 3.4

IGF-1 at 178 (no Z score given, but as far as I can tell that leaves me very close to the mean for my age)

Treatment could obviously be considered, my former doc said (he is not shy about the benefits of TRT and says he is on it himself), but he did not want to rush into it given my age and how relatively few symptoms there are, and thought my levels might bounce back a bit with weight loss etc. All of this came just before tirz started. More brain fog / difficulty focusing is something I feel at times, but as of now sleep, libido and so on are all fine.

As for goals, a ton of extra muscle is not the aim. Leaning out, focusing on recovery / preventing orthopedic and joint problems, and avoiding anything terribly risky for longevity or cancer are the aims.

So, assuming test is still below 300 on the next round of labs, my questions are:

1. If only one treatment were to be started first (TRT, HGH or GHRH/secretogoblin), which would you pick and why?

2. With goals like mine (gradual recomp / recovery / getting lean matters more than adding bulk), does the risk of HGH justify it over something like CJC/IPA? Getting on gear at any point is not the plan, so the options listed above are pretty much the menu for me in one combo or another. The other thing I wonder is whether starting test alone would do as much or more for me, since I am already active and have no major complaints.

3. Where long-term / higher dose HGH risks are a concern, is there any benefit in low dose / short cycles purely for recomp / fat loss? Say 1-2 iu across 4-6 weeks, once or twice a year?

Any other comments on how to think through the TRT/HGH/GHRH axis of options in general would be welcome as well.
Click to expand...
Start with Enclomiphime, or HCG

With FHS that low, the signal telling your ledig cells to ramp up production is not getting through.

Zinc - with low zinc, your body cannot make T

You mentioned Tirz; losing weight too quickly puts you into starvation mode, and your FSH signaling stays muted until a calorie surplus is reached again.
Click to expand...

Those numbers came from before tirz started. A surplus was definitely the case then, but I was also much fatter. As I understand it, obesity and starvation can both suppress FSH, and which one is worse on that front is not clear to me.

Preserving as much muscle as possible on tirz has been the focus, and the weight loss stayed fairly gradual. In a few weeks I will find out how those levels changed as a result, I guess.
Click to expand...
both of them work on your hormone production.

With Enclomiphene or Hgc your FHS would go up, and what you can produce unaided would become measurable.

Your IGF would climb along with your T,

Get your T optimized first
 
Cannonball72 said:

A couple of honest thoughts.

Way more muscle needs to go on than you think you want. Especially given that you are talking about being naturally nearly hypogonadal while considering test/hgh/secretogogues.

Given the low production, Enclomophene mono therapy is worth considering. Test injections come next - the gold standard, and for good reason. Lowest effective dose. Two viable TRT interventions, often combined.

Mood/emotion issues that come with low test are helped by test injections, but physique alone is not something they fix. My own protocol is test .36mg eod, enclomphene 25mg1x/wk, HCG 150iu 1x wk. No AIs needed, no skin problems, no hair loss. High test and free test numbers.

Re: HGH and/or secretegogues. All of them work. The caveat - and this loops back to the first paragraph - is that none of them are magic. The work has to be done. A committed nutrition and fitness program is when these interventions shine. Otherwise, garbage in, garbage out.

At your age, secretogogues should be fine. For long runs HGH up to 4iu, 2-3IU is generally ok. Blood work done first, then let how much assistance you want drive the decision. Is the aim to max out your natural system, or to pick the specific level you want to carry? Secretegogues cover the first aim, HGH the second. I’m 53 and run a tesa/ipa 6:1 blend 5/2, very happy with this.

Reta/Tirz and etc. are closer to miracle peptides. How much work the individual puts in matters less, though the outcome is still heavily shaped by moving to quality nutrition and fitness.

All that said. Your actual question - TRT is where the foundation lies. Start here. No need to rush into the rest, the time will come. Do TRT first and see how you respond. The next intervention can be considered once you are settled.

Apologies if anything got misinterpreted. Coming across as a know it all is not my intention. Yet I have been through it and found what really works for me, and the stories of people on this site would show a very common pattern behind what I shared.

Regular blood work is a must.
Click to expand...
0.36mg barely counts as anything

Was 0.36 ml every other day what you meant?
 
Turbo-Farmer said:

fatjacked said:

Turbo-Farmer said:

fatjacked said:

A fair amount of reading on the various options has gone into this, as the title suggests. Some background - male, early 40's, done having kids. With tirz I am approaching my goal weight, and am weighing options for recomp / maintenance and general health from here on. Heavy lifting 3-4 times per week, plus basketball and jogging for cardio; fitness and health goals are going reasonably well. High cholesterol in the past, now well controlled on a low dose statin. In a few weeks there is an appointment with a new PCP where some labs etc. will be requested.

The most recent labs were in October and read as follows:

Total test at 229

Free test at 5.3

FSH at 4.1

LH at 3.4

IGF-1 at 178 (no Z score given, but as far as I can tell that leaves me very close to the mean for my age)

Treatment could obviously be considered, my former doc said (he is not shy about the benefits of TRT and says he is on it himself), but he did not want to rush into it given my age and how relatively few symptoms there are, and thought my levels might bounce back a bit with weight loss etc. All of this came just before tirz started. More brain fog / difficulty focusing is something I feel at times, but as of now sleep, libido and so on are all fine.

As for goals, a ton of extra muscle is not the aim. Leaning out, focusing on recovery / preventing orthopedic and joint problems, and avoiding anything terribly risky for longevity or cancer are the aims.

So, assuming test is still below 300 on the next round of labs, my questions are:

1. If only one treatment were to be started first (TRT, HGH or GHRH/secretogoblin), which would you pick and why?

2. With goals like mine (gradual recomp / recovery / getting lean matters more than adding bulk), does the risk of HGH justify it over something like CJC/IPA? Getting on gear at any point is not the plan, so the options listed above are pretty much the menu for me in one combo or another. The other thing I wonder is whether starting test alone would do as much or more for me, since I am already active and have no major complaints.

3. Where long-term / higher dose HGH risks are a concern, is there any benefit in low dose / short cycles purely for recomp / fat loss? Say 1-2 iu across 4-6 weeks, once or twice a year?

Any other comments on how to think through the TRT/HGH/GHRH axis of options in general would be welcome as well.
Click to expand...
Start with Enclomiphime, or HCG

With FHS that low, the signal telling your ledig cells to ramp up production is not getting through.

Zinc - with low zinc, your body cannot make T

You mentioned Tirz; losing weight too quickly puts you into starvation mode, and your FSH signaling stays muted until a calorie surplus is reached again.
Click to expand...

Those numbers came from before tirz started. A surplus was definitely the case then, but I was also much fatter. As I understand it, obesity and starvation can both suppress FSH, and which one is worse on that front is not clear to me.

Preserving as much muscle as possible on tirz has been the focus, and the weight loss stayed fairly gradual. In a few weeks I will find out how those levels changed as a result, I guess.
Click to expand...
both of them work on your hormone production.

With Enclomiphene or Hgc your FHS would go up, and what you can produce unaided would become measurable.

Your IGF would climb along with your T,

Get your T optimized first
Click to expand...

But supposing enclo on its own got me to a level that was acceptable - holding that production would still mean staying on enclo indefinitely, right?
 
fatjacked said:

Turbo-Farmer said:

fatjacked said:

Turbo-Farmer said:

fatjacked said:

A fair amount of reading on the various options has gone into this, as the title suggests. Some background - male, early 40's, done having kids. With tirz I am approaching my goal weight, and am weighing options for recomp / maintenance and general health from here on. Heavy lifting 3-4 times per week, plus basketball and jogging for cardio; fitness and health goals are going reasonably well. High cholesterol in the past, now well controlled on a low dose statin. In a few weeks there is an appointment with a new PCP where some labs etc. will be requested.

The most recent labs were in October and read as follows:

Total test at 229

Free test at 5.3

FSH at 4.1

LH at 3.4

IGF-1 at 178 (no Z score given, but as far as I can tell that leaves me very close to the mean for my age)

Treatment could obviously be considered, my former doc said (he is not shy about the benefits of TRT and says he is on it himself), but he did not want to rush into it given my age and how relatively few symptoms there are, and thought my levels might bounce back a bit with weight loss etc. All of this came just before tirz started. More brain fog / difficulty focusing is something I feel at times, but as of now sleep, libido and so on are all fine.

As for goals, a ton of extra muscle is not the aim. Leaning out, focusing on recovery / preventing orthopedic and joint problems, and avoiding anything terribly risky for longevity or cancer are the aims.

So, assuming test is still below 300 on the next round of labs, my questions are:

1. If only one treatment were to be started first (TRT, HGH or GHRH/secretogoblin), which would you pick and why?

2. With goals like mine (gradual recomp / recovery / getting lean matters more than adding bulk), does the risk of HGH justify it over something like CJC/IPA? Getting on gear at any point is not the plan, so the options listed above are pretty much the menu for me in one combo or another. The other thing I wonder is whether starting test alone would do as much or more for me, since I am already active and have no major complaints.

3. Where long-term / higher dose HGH risks are a concern, is there any benefit in low dose / short cycles purely for recomp / fat loss? Say 1-2 iu across 4-6 weeks, once or twice a year?

Any other comments on how to think through the TRT/HGH/GHRH axis of options in general would be welcome as well.
Click to expand...
Start with Enclomiphime, or HCG

With FHS that low, the signal telling your ledig cells to ramp up production is not getting through.

Zinc - with low zinc, your body cannot make T

You mentioned Tirz; losing weight too quickly puts you into starvation mode, and your FSH signaling stays muted until a calorie surplus is reached again.
Click to expand...

Those numbers came from before tirz started. A surplus was definitely the case then, but I was also much fatter. As I understand it, obesity and starvation can both suppress FSH, and which one is worse on that front is not clear to me.

Preserving as much muscle as possible on tirz has been the focus, and the weight loss stayed fairly gradual. In a few weeks I will find out how those levels changed as a result, I guess.
Click to expand...
both of them work on your hormone production.

With Enclomiphene or Hgc your FHS would go up, and what you can produce unaided would become measurable.

Your IGF would climb along with your T,

Get your T optimized first
Click to expand...

But supposing enclo on its own got me to a level that was acceptable - holding that production would still mean staying on enclo indefinitely, right?
Click to expand...
Not necessarily - at a healthy weight, and with no weight being lost, your own signaling would be inhibited far less

Proper nutrition, resistance training, enough sleep etc.
 
Much of what is above comes from a bodybuilding perspective, and since a lot of muscle is not what you say you want, that may be the wrong lens for your situation. Health and illness prevention correlate strongly with cardiorespiratory fitness; muscle mass matters, but its effects are less clear cut than overall fitness.

Big gains in muscle mass are achievable with high doses of testosterone, any of the anabolic androgenic steroids, or hgh - but health risks come with those doses, and becoming less healthy while more ripped is probably not the goal.

Low or replacement dose trt or hgh does not do a great deal. With less body fat, test may well recover to higher levels; the standard advice in Australia is to manage it by weight loss rather than replacement - an approach I do not entirely agree with - but replacement may not be needed once levels are checked after the weight comes off. From my reading, the combination of trt and hgh at physiological levels, so not high doses, is worth roughly 5% less fat and 5% more muscle, and about weight neutral overall. That was in older males; you are somewhat younger so results might be a little better, but a huge difference it will not make.

Replacement level dose TRT is generally thought to be health neutral or beneficial. It does not come free of side effects, it is often prescribed by doctors, and opinions on it vary widely. For the outcome you are after, HGH is essentially never prescribed by doctors; the risks are generally judged to outweigh the benefits. My own setup is 1.5 iu hgh/2 days plus doctor prescribed TRT, but I am also working to hold onto a 55% weight loss, and my reasoning is that even that extra 5% could help. My IGF-1 level was through the roof at 1.5iu/day, though, so it will need rechecking on half that dose.

Broadly, the standard Meso approach puts more and more lifting first, and that is not wrong: exercise, and how much of it, will matter far more than any added chemical.
 
fatjacked said:

Cannonball72 said:

A couple of honest thoughts.

Way more muscle needs to go on than you think you want. Especially given that you are talking about being naturally nearly hypogonadal while considering test/hgh/secretogogues.

Given the low production, Enclomophene mono therapy is worth considering. Test injections come next - the gold standard, and for good reason. Lowest effective dose. Two viable TRT interventions, often combined.

Mood/emotion issues that come with low test are helped by test injections, but physique alone is not something they fix. My own protocol is test .36mg eod, enclomphene 25mg1x/wk, HCG 150iu 1x wk. No AIs needed, no skin problems, no hair loss. High test and free test numbers.

Re: HGH and/or secretegogues. All of them work. The caveat - and this loops back to the first paragraph - is that none of them are magic. The work has to be done. A committed nutrition and fitness program is when these interventions shine. Otherwise, garbage in, garbage out.

At your age, secretogogues should be fine. For long runs HGH up to 4iu, 2-3IU is generally ok. Blood work done first, then let how much assistance you want drive the decision. Is the aim to max out your natural system, or to pick the specific level you want to carry? Secretegogues cover the first aim, HGH the second. I’m 53 and run a tesa/ipa 6:1 blend 5/2, very happy with this.

Reta/Tirz and etc. are closer to miracle peptides. How much work the individual puts in matters less, though the outcome is still heavily shaped by moving to quality nutrition and fitness.

All that said. Your actual question - TRT is where the foundation lies. Start here. No need to rush into the rest, the time will come. Do TRT first and see how you respond. The next intervention can be considered once you are settled.

Apologies if anything got misinterpreted. Coming across as a know it all is not my intention. Yet I have been through it and found what really works for me, and the stories of people on this site would show a very common pattern behind what I shared.

Regular blood work is a must.
Click to expand...

Where the idea came from that I am not doing the work, or do not want to, I am not sure. My post seemed pretty clear - the gym routine is really solid, I am very strong compared to the general population, I was simply also fat. Now that I am bordering-on-not-fat and thinking about what maintenance looks like, the options are what I am looking into.

On enclo vs. TRT, my reading leaves me with the impression that enclo has far less long term safety data, works but less well, and would leave me on the gray market managing it myself - versus TRT hopefully covered by my insurance. Fertility is also no longer a concern for me.
Click to expand...
On that point about enclo having a lot less long term safety data - proper TRT has no risk attached, though an estrogen blocker is needed by some and blood donation by others.
 
lessthanhalf said:

Much of what is above comes from a bodybuilding perspective, and since a lot of muscle is not what you say you want, that may be the wrong lens for your situation. Health and illness prevention correlate strongly with cardiorespiratory fitness; muscle mass matters, but its effects are less clear cut than overall fitness.

Big gains in muscle mass are achievable with high doses of testosterone, any of the anabolic androgenic steroids, or hgh - but health risks come with those doses, and becoming less healthy while more ripped is probably not the goal.

Low or replacement dose trt or hgh does not do a great deal. With less body fat, test may well recover to higher levels; the standard advice in Australia is to manage it by weight loss rather than replacement - an approach I do not entirely agree with - but replacement may not be needed once levels are checked after the weight comes off. From my reading, the combination of trt and hgh at physiological levels, so not high doses, is worth roughly 5% less fat and 5% more muscle, and about weight neutral overall. That was in older males; you are somewhat younger so results might be a little better, but a huge difference it will not make.

Replacement level dose TRT is generally thought to be health neutral or beneficial. It does not come free of side effects, it is often prescribed by doctors, and opinions on it vary widely. For the outcome you are after, HGH is essentially never prescribed by doctors; the risks are generally judged to outweigh the benefits. My own setup is 1.5 iu hgh/2 days plus doctor prescribed TRT, but I am also working to hold onto a 55% weight loss, and my reasoning is that even that extra 5% could help. My IGF-1 level was through the roof at 1.5iu/day, though, so it will need rechecking on half that dose.

Broadly, the standard Meso approach puts more and more lifting first, and that is not wrong: exercise, and how much of it, will matter far more than any added chemical.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Yes, I agree - most answers on this issue seem to come from a bodybuilding angle, and not only here but essentially anywhere you look for answers beyond the conservative mainstream standard of treatment.

Is the point that HGH went on top of test essentially for that marginal +/- 5% in fat and muscle? Honestly, a result like that would be a slam dunk for me. Why HGH rather than secretagogues?
 
fatjacked said:

A fair amount of reading on the various options has gone into this, as the title suggests. Some background - male, early 40's, done having kids. With tirz I am approaching my goal weight, and am weighing options for recomp / maintenance and general health from here on. Heavy lifting 3-4 times per week, plus basketball and jogging for cardio; fitness and health goals are going reasonably well. High cholesterol in the past, now well controlled on a low dose statin. In a few weeks there is an appointment with a new PCP where some labs etc. will be requested.

The most recent labs were in October and read as follows:

Total test at 229

Free test at 5.3

FSH at 4.1

LH at 3.4

IGF-1 at 178 (no Z score given, but as far as I can tell that leaves me very close to the mean for my age)

Treatment could obviously be considered, my former doc said (he is not shy about the benefits of TRT and says he is on it himself), but he did not want to rush into it given my age and how relatively few symptoms there are, and thought my levels might bounce back a bit with weight loss etc. All of this came just before tirz started. More brain fog / difficulty focusing is something I feel at times, but as of now sleep, libido and so on are all fine.

As for goals, a ton of extra muscle is not the aim. Leaning out, focusing on recovery / preventing orthopedic and joint problems, and avoiding anything terribly risky for longevity or cancer are the aims.

So, assuming test is still below 300 on the next round of labs, my questions are:

1. If only one treatment were to be started first (TRT, HGH or GHRH/secretogoblin), which would you pick and why?

2. With goals like mine (gradual recomp / recovery / getting lean matters more than adding bulk), does the risk of HGH justify it over something like CJC/IPA? Getting on gear at any point is not the plan, so the options listed above are pretty much the menu for me in one combo or another. The other thing I wonder is whether starting test alone would do as much or more for me, since I am already active and have no major complaints.

3. Where long-term / higher dose HGH risks are a concern, is there any benefit in low dose / short cycles purely for recomp / fat loss? Say 1-2 iu across 4-6 weeks, once or twice a year?

Any other comments on how to think through the TRT/HGH/GHRH axis of options in general would be welcome as well.
Click to expand...
What is your bfp? Without that number, things could change - if you were at 10 percent and stuck there, then for my money raising your test (say times 2-3) would dramatically outweigh pushing your Igf up to 300 (which, from your posts, looks like the most you would want to raise it). With your risk profile, saving the HGH (or tesa etc) is what I would do, for when Igf likely drops further around 50 years old and you are stuck trying to cut a bit. 2 cents from me, anyway.
 
Studies on hgh are surprisingly scarce, whether the outcome measured is muscle mass, obesity or quality of life; trt has a few more. One study in older males found that hgh and testosterone together at reasonable doses produced roughly a 5% difference - not nothing, but not huge either. Taken individually the effect is nearer 2%.

Price is why hgh wins over tesamorelin - it is cheaper. The trouble with hgh or secretagogues is that IGF-1 deficient animals live longer, a finding repeated many times. Reducing lifespan is therefore possible. Long term human studies for obesity or anything similar do not exist, since it is really only ever given to people with no hgh because of brain injuries, or to children with short stature. My own cardiovascular risk is unusually high: 10 year risks of 25+% of serious issues, roughly half that with statins etc, assuming the weight loss holds; if I regained the 80 kilos, the odds of making ten years without heart attack, stroke or heart failure would be around 0%. Against that background I judge hgh risks acceptable, provided the dose stays nowhere near high enough to cause cardiac hypertrophy - whereas in someone younger with fewer medical risks the equation is different. Looking up the adverse effects of hgh matters, as does conservative dosing rather than the bodybuilding 4iu is fine approach; at 58, 1.5iu was too much for me.
 
lessthanhalf said:

Studies on hgh are surprisingly scarce, whether the outcome measured is muscle mass, obesity or quality of life; trt has a few more. One study in older males found that hgh and testosterone together at reasonable doses produced roughly a 5% difference - not nothing, but not huge either. Taken individually the effect is nearer 2%.

Price is why hgh wins over tesamorelin - it is cheaper. The trouble with hgh or secretagogues is that IGF-1 deficient animals live longer, a finding repeated many times. Reducing lifespan is therefore possible. Long term human studies for obesity or anything similar do not exist, since it is really only ever given to people with no hgh because of brain injuries, or to children with short stature. My own cardiovascular risk is unusually high: 10 year risks of 25+% of serious issues, roughly half that with statins etc, assuming the weight loss holds; if I regained the 80 kilos, the odds of making ten years without heart attack, stroke or heart failure would be around 0%. Against that background I judge hgh risks acceptable, provided the dose stays nowhere near high enough to cause cardiac hypertrophy - whereas in someone younger with fewer medical risks the equation is different. Looking up the adverse effects of hgh matters, as does conservative dosing rather than the bodybuilding 4iu is fine approach; at 58, 1.5iu was too much for me.
Click to expand...
Dwarf mice do live longer, it is true (those are the studies). And major bone density issues do come with a significant HGH deficiency, that is also true. So that is where the data sits. Also, body builders gaining muscle take 10-12 IU plus insulin, and some cruise around 6 IU. The 4 IU dose is closer to an uber weight lifter on forums like this and Reddit.
 
Turbo-Farmer said:

Cannonball72 said:

A couple of honest thoughts.

Way more muscle needs to go on than you think you want. Especially given that you are talking about being naturally nearly hypogonadal while considering test/hgh/secretogogues.

Given the low production, Enclomophene mono therapy is worth considering. Test injections come next - the gold standard, and for good reason. Lowest effective dose. Two viable TRT interventions, often combined.

Mood/emotion issues that come with low test are helped by test injections, but physique alone is not something they fix. My own protocol is test .36mg eod, enclomphene 25mg1x/wk, HCG 150iu 1x wk. No AIs needed, no skin problems, no hair loss. High test and free test numbers.

Re: HGH and/or secretegogues. All of them work. The caveat - and this loops back to the first paragraph - is that none of them are magic. The work has to be done. A committed nutrition and fitness program is when these interventions shine. Otherwise, garbage in, garbage out.

At your age, secretogogues should be fine. For long runs HGH up to 4iu, 2-3IU is generally ok. Blood work done first, then let how much assistance you want drive the decision. Is the aim to max out your natural system, or to pick the specific level you want to carry? Secretegogues cover the first aim, HGH the second. I’m 53 and run a tesa/ipa 6:1 blend 5/2, very happy with this.

Reta/Tirz and etc. are closer to miracle peptides. How much work the individual puts in matters less, though the outcome is still heavily shaped by moving to quality nutrition and fitness.

All that said. Your actual question - TRT is where the foundation lies. Start here. No need to rush into the rest, the time will come. Do TRT first and see how you respond. The next intervention can be considered once you are settled.

Apologies if anything got misinterpreted. Coming across as a know it all is not my intention. Yet I have been through it and found what really works for me, and the stories of people on this site would show a very common pattern behind what I shared.

Regular blood work is a must.
Click to expand...
0.36mg barely counts as anything

Was 0.36 ml every other day what you meant?
Click to expand...
Nice catch - 36mg (.18ml) eod (every other day), thank you. My head was in ml rather than mg.
 
fatjacked said:

Cannonball72 said:

A couple of honest thoughts.

Way more muscle needs to go on than you think you want. Especially given that you are talking about being naturally nearly hypogonadal while considering test/hgh/secretogogues.

Given the low production, Enclomophene mono therapy is worth considering. Test injections come next - the gold standard, and for good reason. Lowest effective dose. Two viable TRT interventions, often combined.

Mood/emotion issues that come with low test are helped by test injections, but physique alone is not something they fix. My own protocol is test .36mg eod, enclomphene 25mg1x/wk, HCG 150iu 1x wk. No AIs needed, no skin problems, no hair loss. High test and free test numbers.

Re: HGH and/or secretegogues. All of them work. The caveat - and this loops back to the first paragraph - is that none of them are magic. The work has to be done. A committed nutrition and fitness program is when these interventions shine. Otherwise, garbage in, garbage out.

At your age, secretogogues should be fine. For long runs HGH up to 4iu, 2-3IU is generally ok. Blood work done first, then let how much assistance you want drive the decision. Is the aim to max out your natural system, or to pick the specific level you want to carry? Secretegogues cover the first aim, HGH the second. I’m 53 and run a tesa/ipa 6:1 blend 5/2, very happy with this.

Reta/Tirz and etc. are closer to miracle peptides. How much work the individual puts in matters less, though the outcome is still heavily shaped by moving to quality nutrition and fitness.

All that said. Your actual question - TRT is where the foundation lies. Start here. No need to rush into the rest, the time will come. Do TRT first and see how you respond. The next intervention can be considered once you are settled.

Apologies if anything got misinterpreted. Coming across as a know it all is not my intention. Yet I have been through it and found what really works for me, and the stories of people on this site would show a very common pattern behind what I shared.

Regular blood work is a must.
Click to expand...

Where the idea came from that I am not doing the work, or do not want to, I am not sure. My post seemed pretty clear - the gym routine is really solid, I am very strong compared to the general population, I was simply also fat. Now that I am bordering-on-not-fat and thinking about what maintenance looks like, the options are what I am looking into.

On enclo vs. TRT, my reading leaves me with the impression that enclo has far less long term safety data, works but less well, and would leave me on the gray market managing it myself - versus TRT hopefully covered by my insurance. Fertility is also no longer a concern for me.
Click to expand...

Specifically, it was in reference to this, and to the interest in HGH/secretagogues.

The reference was to this paragraph of mine about goals: no interest in adding a ton of muscle, wanting to lean out, to focus on recovery / preventing orthopedic and joint problems, and to avoid anything terribly risky for longevity or cancer.
 
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