Is there any basis for injecting Pinealon rather than taking the capsule?

[Researcher6076]

Hello Peppy Friends,

I have been bringing my research notes up to date on Epitalon (Ala‑Glu‑Asp‑Gly) and Thymogen (Glu‑Trp) (AKA FRU, at times called Thymalin), and I wanted to fold in what I have on Pinealon. Pinealon (Arg‑Glu‑Asp) tends to come up in that same longevity discussion.

So I went back through the Khavinson monographs together with documents from the Institute of Bioregulation and Gerontology. Nowhere in the Institute’s official monographs, clinical course tables or product instructions is Pinealon described as something you inject.

What they consistently describe instead is an oral capsule bioregulator (Arg‑Glu‑Asp) — 0.215 g capsule, holding ~200 µg of the Arg‑Glu‑As peptide complex, dosed at 1–2 capsules, 1–2× per day, for a 10–30 day course, repeated every 4–6 months.

Which leaves me wondering why we are injecting it at all?

ps: scaling by standard surface area, the rat dose would work out to about 110mcg a day for a 150 lb human.

 

[Goonwise]

What has your research turned up on Thymogen versus, say, Thymulin? There is precious little written about Thymogen anywhere I look.

 

[Redz]

Should I give this one a go, it will be injections, purely on bioavailability grounds. I came across it somewhere recently. A gb, I think.

 

[Researcher6076]

Redz said:

Should I give this one a go, it will be injections, purely on bioavailability grounds. I came across it somewhere recently. A gb, I think.

The pineal gland sits deep inside the human brain. What makes you think SC would have more bioavailability than nasal? No human PK data exists for this, so mechanistic reasoning is all we have to go on. Once you inject SC, the peptide travelling through the blood stream is getting shredded long before it reaches the brain. Intranasal generally has good bioavailability into the brain. Oxytocin is a good example of this. For social effects we prefer intranasal over SC. And we prefer SC if the aim is to maximize reproductive effects.

 

[ultimawar2]

Researcher6076 said:

Redz said:

Should I give this one a go, it will be injections, purely on bioavailability grounds. I came across it somewhere recently. A gb, I think.

The pineal gland sits deep inside the human brain. What makes you think SC would have more bioavailability than nasal? No human PK data exists for this, so mechanistic reasoning is all we have to go on. Once you inject SC, the peptide travelling through the blood stream is getting shredded long before it reaches the brain. Intranasal generally has good bioavailability into the brain. Oxytocin is a good example of this. For social effects we prefer intranasal over SC. And we prefer SC if the aim is to maximize reproductive effects.

Intranasal can be done, but subcutaneous goes systemic and, being a tripeptide, it is small enough to cross the BBB

 

[Clavicular's Hammer]

Researcher6076 said:

Redz said:

Should I give this one a go, it will be injections, purely on bioavailability grounds. I came across it somewhere recently. A gb, I think.

The pineal gland sits deep inside the human brain. What makes you think SC would have more bioavailability than nasal? No human PK data exists for this, so mechanistic reasoning is all we have to go on. Once you inject SC, the peptide travelling through the blood stream is getting shredded long before it reaches the brain. Intranasal generally has good bioavailability into the brain. Oxytocin is a good example of this. For social effects we prefer intranasal over SC. And we prefer SC if the aim is to maximize reproductive effects.

I nearly started IN Selank, then read a mouse study showing subq was the only route that produced the gabba response I want. IN came out ahead on bdnf and the other upsides, mind.

So my plan there is subq at night for sleep, IN through the day whenever anxiety creeps in

 

[Flash-BCR]

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Researcher6076 said:

Redz said:

Should I give this one a go, it will be injections, purely on bioavailability grounds. I came across it somewhere recently. A gb, I think.

The pineal gland sits deep inside the human brain. What makes you think SC would have more bioavailability than nasal? No human PK data exists for this, so mechanistic reasoning is all we have to go on. Once you inject SC, the peptide travelling through the blood stream is getting shredded long before it reaches the brain. Intranasal generally has good bioavailability into the brain. Oxytocin is a good example of this. For social effects we prefer intranasal over SC. And we prefer SC if the aim is to maximize reproductive effects.

I nearly started IN Selank, then read a mouse study showing subq was the only route that produced the gabba response I want. IN came out ahead on bdnf and the other upsides, mind.

So my plan there is subq at night for sleep, IN through the day whenever anxiety creeps in

Pretty much my routine…there's a snoot that lives at my job, and 1mg goes in early evening….

 

[Clavicular's Hammer]

Flash-BCR said:

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Researcher6076 said:

Redz said:

Should I give this one a go, it will be injections, purely on bioavailability grounds. I came across it somewhere recently. A gb, I think.

The pineal gland sits deep inside the human brain. What makes you think SC would have more bioavailability than nasal? No human PK data exists for this, so mechanistic reasoning is all we have to go on. Once you inject SC, the peptide travelling through the blood stream is getting shredded long before it reaches the brain. Intranasal generally has good bioavailability into the brain. Oxytocin is a good example of this. For social effects we prefer intranasal over SC. And we prefer SC if the aim is to maximize reproductive effects.

I nearly started IN Selank, then read a mouse study showing subq was the only route that produced the gabba response I want. IN came out ahead on bdnf and the other upsides, mind.

So my plan there is subq at night for sleep, IN through the day whenever anxiety creeps in

Pretty much my routine…there's a snoot that lives at my job, and 1mg goes in early evening….

Any change on the sleep front?

Or anything else, come to that?

Mine should show up in roughly a week and I can't wait. Epitalon was a miracle for my sleep — daily use would be my choice if the protocols allowed it, but from what I've read you're limited to a couple cycles a year

 

[Flash-BCR]

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Flash-BCR said:

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Researcher6076 said:

Redz said:

Should I give this one a go, it will be injections, purely on bioavailability grounds. I came across it somewhere recently. A gb, I think.

The pineal gland sits deep inside the human brain. What makes you think SC would have more bioavailability than nasal? No human PK data exists for this, so mechanistic reasoning is all we have to go on. Once you inject SC, the peptide travelling through the blood stream is getting shredded long before it reaches the brain. Intranasal generally has good bioavailability into the brain. Oxytocin is a good example of this. For social effects we prefer intranasal over SC. And we prefer SC if the aim is to maximize reproductive effects.

I nearly started IN Selank, then read a mouse study showing subq was the only route that produced the gabba response I want. IN came out ahead on bdnf and the other upsides, mind.

So my plan there is subq at night for sleep, IN through the day whenever anxiety creeps in

Pretty much my routine…there's a snoot that lives at my job, and 1mg goes in early evening….

Any change on the sleep front?

Or anything else, come to that?

Mine should show up in roughly a week and I can't wait. Epitalon was a miracle for my sleep — daily use would be my choice if the protocols allowed it, but from what I've read you're limited to a couple cycles a year

Falling asleep comes easier, yet 4 hours in I'm still waking — up, read, then another attempt at sleep…

 

[Clavicular's Hammer]

Flash-BCR said:

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Flash-BCR said:

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Researcher6076 said:

Redz said:

Should I give this one a go, it will be injections, purely on bioavailability grounds. I came across it somewhere recently. A gb, I think.

The pineal gland sits deep inside the human brain. What makes you think SC would have more bioavailability than nasal? No human PK data exists for this, so mechanistic reasoning is all we have to go on. Once you inject SC, the peptide travelling through the blood stream is getting shredded long before it reaches the brain. Intranasal generally has good bioavailability into the brain. Oxytocin is a good example of this. For social effects we prefer intranasal over SC. And we prefer SC if the aim is to maximize reproductive effects.

I nearly started IN Selank, then read a mouse study showing subq was the only route that produced the gabba response I want. IN came out ahead on bdnf and the other upsides, mind.

So my plan there is subq at night for sleep, IN through the day whenever anxiety creeps in

Pretty much my routine…there's a snoot that lives at my job, and 1mg goes in early evening….

Any change on the sleep front?

Or anything else, come to that?

Mine should show up in roughly a week and I can't wait. Epitalon was a miracle for my sleep — daily use would be my choice if the protocols allowed it, but from what I've read you're limited to a couple cycles a year

Falling asleep comes easier, yet 4 hours in I'm still waking — up, read, then another attempt at sleep…

Yeah, those gabba effects looked like they hold for only 4-6 hours, and that's what I sleep anyway. Chasing the elusive 7, or the unimaginable 8.

Might hang on until my midnight bathroom trip and pin then

 

[Clavicular's Hammer]

Flash-BCR said:

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Flash-BCR said:

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Researcher6076 said:

Redz said:

Should I give this one a go, it will be injections, purely on bioavailability grounds. I came across it somewhere recently. A gb, I think.

The pineal gland sits deep inside the human brain. What makes you think SC would have more bioavailability than nasal? No human PK data exists for this, so mechanistic reasoning is all we have to go on. Once you inject SC, the peptide travelling through the blood stream is getting shredded long before it reaches the brain. Intranasal generally has good bioavailability into the brain. Oxytocin is a good example of this. For social effects we prefer intranasal over SC. And we prefer SC if the aim is to maximize reproductive effects.

I nearly started IN Selank, then read a mouse study showing subq was the only route that produced the gabba response I want. IN came out ahead on bdnf and the other upsides, mind.

So my plan there is subq at night for sleep, IN through the day whenever anxiety creeps in

Pretty much my routine…there's a snoot that lives at my job, and 1mg goes in early evening….

Any change on the sleep front?

Or anything else, come to that?

Mine should show up in roughly a week and I can't wait. Epitalon was a miracle for my sleep — daily use would be my choice if the protocols allowed it, but from what I've read you're limited to a couple cycles a year

Falling asleep comes easier, yet 4 hours in I'm still waking — up, read, then another attempt at sleep…

Ever given Epitalon a go?

My impression is that it accumulates the way Reta does. Ran 2mg daily for a while and spent the whole time wiped out.

Once I dropped to 1mg at night I slept my usual 6hrs, except with no wake ups at all. It also left me tired enough through the day that a lunchtime trip home meant a 20 min winker

 

[Flash-BCR]

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Flash-BCR said:

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Flash-BCR said:

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Researcher6076 said:

Redz said:

Should I give this one a go, it will be injections, purely on bioavailability grounds. I came across it somewhere recently. A gb, I think.

The pineal gland sits deep inside the human brain. What makes you think SC would have more bioavailability than nasal? No human PK data exists for this, so mechanistic reasoning is all we have to go on. Once you inject SC, the peptide travelling through the blood stream is getting shredded long before it reaches the brain. Intranasal generally has good bioavailability into the brain. Oxytocin is a good example of this. For social effects we prefer intranasal over SC. And we prefer SC if the aim is to maximize reproductive effects.

I nearly started IN Selank, then read a mouse study showing subq was the only route that produced the gabba response I want. IN came out ahead on bdnf and the other upsides, mind.

So my plan there is subq at night for sleep, IN through the day whenever anxiety creeps in

Pretty much my routine…there's a snoot that lives at my job, and 1mg goes in early evening….

Any change on the sleep front?

Or anything else, come to that?

Mine should show up in roughly a week and I can't wait. Epitalon was a miracle for my sleep — daily use would be my choice if the protocols allowed it, but from what I've read you're limited to a couple cycles a year

Falling asleep comes easier, yet 4 hours in I'm still waking — up, read, then another attempt at sleep…

Ever given Epitalon a go?

My impression is that it accumulates the way Reta does. Ran 2mg daily for a while and spent the whole time wiped out.

Once I dropped to 1mg at night I slept my usual 6hrs, except with no wake ups at all. It also left me tired enough through the day that a lunchtime trip home meant a 20 min winker

The 'sleepy' peps are on my shopping list…a few have slipped past me lately, though there's always another round coming…

 

[amosmylove]

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Flash-BCR said:

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Flash-BCR said:

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Researcher6076 said:

Redz said:

Should I give this one a go, it will be injections, purely on bioavailability grounds. I came across it somewhere recently. A gb, I think.

The pineal gland sits deep inside the human brain. What makes you think SC would have more bioavailability than nasal? No human PK data exists for this, so mechanistic reasoning is all we have to go on. Once you inject SC, the peptide travelling through the blood stream is getting shredded long before it reaches the brain. Intranasal generally has good bioavailability into the brain. Oxytocin is a good example of this. For social effects we prefer intranasal over SC. And we prefer SC if the aim is to maximize reproductive effects.

I nearly started IN Selank, then read a mouse study showing subq was the only route that produced the gabba response I want. IN came out ahead on bdnf and the other upsides, mind.

So my plan there is subq at night for sleep, IN through the day whenever anxiety creeps in

Pretty much my routine…there's a snoot that lives at my job, and 1mg goes in early evening….

Any change on the sleep front?

Or anything else, come to that?

Mine should show up in roughly a week and I can't wait. Epitalon was a miracle for my sleep — daily use would be my choice if the protocols allowed it, but from what I've read you're limited to a couple cycles a year

Falling asleep comes easier, yet 4 hours in I'm still waking — up, read, then another attempt at sleep…

Ever given Epitalon a go?

My impression is that it accumulates the way Reta does. Ran 2mg daily for a while and spent the whole time wiped out.

Once I dropped to 1mg at night I slept my usual 6hrs, except with no wake ups at all. It also left me tired enough through the day that a lunchtime trip home meant a 20 min winker

Second cycle of NA epithalon just finished. I ran 1mg SC nightly across 2 vials, 40mg total over the cycles. The opening cycle began at 500mcg and honestly nothing much registered. Nothing bad, at least. Went up to 1mg and thought it did more, but judging how much value something this subtle actually delivers is beyond me. Could be that once I'm asleep I've always slept fine — getting there is my problem. Hours upon hours lying in bed waiting to feel drowsy. And then dragging myself up at a sensible hour never happens. I have 2-3 more na epithalon vials left and will raise the dose next time to see whether anything more obvious surfaces. Two SC DSIP cycles are also behind me; deep sleep did stretch out a little, yet day to day I felt no better. Broadly, my system hypermetabolizes meds and tolerance climbs fast, so matching other people's therapeutic response needs bigger and more frequent dosing. With peptides, since I handle my own regulating/research, I've still been starting low and edging up slowly.

A short break is the plan, then pinealon SC. It's already reconned.

 

[Clavicular's Hammer]

amosmylove said:

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Flash-BCR said:

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Flash-BCR said:

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Researcher6076 said:

Redz said:

Should I give this one a go, it will be injections, purely on bioavailability grounds. I came across it somewhere recently. A gb, I think.

The pineal gland sits deep inside the human brain. What makes you think SC would have more bioavailability than nasal? No human PK data exists for this, so mechanistic reasoning is all we have to go on. Once you inject SC, the peptide travelling through the blood stream is getting shredded long before it reaches the brain. Intranasal generally has good bioavailability into the brain. Oxytocin is a good example of this. For social effects we prefer intranasal over SC. And we prefer SC if the aim is to maximize reproductive effects.

I nearly started IN Selank, then read a mouse study showing subq was the only route that produced the gabba response I want. IN came out ahead on bdnf and the other upsides, mind.

So my plan there is subq at night for sleep, IN through the day whenever anxiety creeps in

Pretty much my routine…there's a snoot that lives at my job, and 1mg goes in early evening….

Any change on the sleep front?

Or anything else, come to that?

Mine should show up in roughly a week and I can't wait. Epitalon was a miracle for my sleep — daily use would be my choice if the protocols allowed it, but from what I've read you're limited to a couple cycles a year

Falling asleep comes easier, yet 4 hours in I'm still waking — up, read, then another attempt at sleep…

Ever given Epitalon a go?

My impression is that it accumulates the way Reta does. Ran 2mg daily for a while and spent the whole time wiped out.

Once I dropped to 1mg at night I slept my usual 6hrs, except with no wake ups at all. It also left me tired enough through the day that a lunchtime trip home meant a 20 min winker

Second cycle of NA epithalon just finished. I ran 1mg SC nightly across 2 vials, 40mg total over the cycles. The opening cycle began at 500mcg and honestly nothing much registered. Nothing bad, at least. Went up to 1mg and thought it did more, but judging how much value something this subtle actually delivers is beyond me. Could be that once I'm asleep I've always slept fine — getting there is my problem. Hours upon hours lying in bed waiting to feel drowsy. And then dragging myself up at a sensible hour never happens. I have 2-3 more na epithalon vials left and will raise the dose next time to see whether anything more obvious surfaces. Two SC DSIP cycles are also behind me; deep sleep did stretch out a little, yet day to day I felt no better. Broadly, my system hypermetabolizes meds and tolerance climbs fast, so matching other people's therapeutic response needs bigger and more frequent dosing. With peptides, since I handle my own regulating/research, I've still been starting low and edging up slowly.

A short break is the plan, then pinealon SC. It's already reconned.

Pinealon has my attention!

 

[CrimsonTaco47]

Flash-BCR said:

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Researcher6076 said:

Redz said:

Should I give this one a go, it will be injections, purely on bioavailability grounds. I came across it somewhere recently. A gb, I think.

The pineal gland sits deep inside the human brain. What makes you think SC would have more bioavailability than nasal? No human PK data exists for this, so mechanistic reasoning is all we have to go on. Once you inject SC, the peptide travelling through the blood stream is getting shredded long before it reaches the brain. Intranasal generally has good bioavailability into the brain. Oxytocin is a good example of this. For social effects we prefer intranasal over SC. And we prefer SC if the aim is to maximize reproductive effects.

I nearly started IN Selank, then read a mouse study showing subq was the only route that produced the gabba response I want. IN came out ahead on bdnf and the other upsides, mind.

So my plan there is subq at night for sleep, IN through the day whenever anxiety creeps in

Pretty much my routine…there's a snoot that lives at my job, and 1mg goes in early evening….

Where did the 1mg dose plan come from? I've only ever seen selank quoted in mcg and 500mcg is as high as I've gone — and with nasal plus injection, what do you figure your daily total works out to? It does very little for me, so I keep wondering whether my dose is simply too low. Was there a protocol somewhere that specified it?

 

[Flash-BCR]

CrimsonTaco47 said:

Flash-BCR said:

Clavicular's Hammer said:

Researcher6076 said:

Redz said:

Should I give this one a go, it will be injections, purely on bioavailability grounds. I came across it somewhere recently. A gb, I think.

The pineal gland sits deep inside the human brain. What makes you think SC would have more bioavailability than nasal? No human PK data exists for this, so mechanistic reasoning is all we have to go on. Once you inject SC, the peptide travelling through the blood stream is getting shredded long before it reaches the brain. Intranasal generally has good bioavailability into the brain. Oxytocin is a good example of this. For social effects we prefer intranasal over SC. And we prefer SC if the aim is to maximize reproductive effects.

I nearly started IN Selank, then read a mouse study showing subq was the only route that produced the gabba response I want. IN came out ahead on bdnf and the other upsides, mind.

So my plan there is subq at night for sleep, IN through the day whenever anxiety creeps in

Pretty much my routine…there's a snoot that lives at my job, and 1mg goes in early evening….

Where did the 1mg dose plan come from? I've only ever seen selank quoted in mcg and 500mcg is as high as I've gone — and with nasal plus injection, what do you figure your daily total works out to? It does very little for me, so I keep wondering whether my dose is simply too low. Was there a protocol somewhere that specified it?

As with most peps, I pick a dose and then fiddle with it until something lands right...1mg of salank does the trick...a nl dose at work does too...

A fresh salank 10mg got reconned earlier, then 1mg went in alongside 2 blend pins and the weekly tirz pin...