First-timer's TRT questions: pinning and labs

Gr33dyOctopus

Gr33dyOctopus

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My labs came back in the 200's on two occasions this year, and my doctor called that perfectly normal. Even so, it looks really low to me.

Here is the part that will probably floor all of you: a gray-market vendor already has my order, purely as an experiment. Delivery is only a few days out.

Sooooo. Needles used to terrify me, and a half inch wide-bore one still does. I have been reading up on subq, though from what I gather IM is what works best. How small a gauge can I actually buy for this?

I keep seeing people pinning subq 3x weekly - is that actually workable?

What I do not want is to wreck the natural test I still have, not with 30 pounds left to shift. Going in for a brief experiment should not be enough to ruin me, should it?

Reta, gh and test together look like a holy trinity to me - the kind of stack that could plausibly have you feeling oh so good. Feeling oh so good is something I have never managed. Perhaps that is the reason I am an asshole and Zippity keeps a finger on the trigger ready to shut me up. Maybe it would also cure the assholism and finally put me on the road to being a church-attending, society-contributing sort of person?

Honestly, I have no idea. Trying all three of them is what I want to do, though. Talk me into it, or talk me out of it?
 
Subq is my routine, 3 times per week. The test c lives in a cabinet at room temperature. Drawing happens with a 27g pin, then I swap to a 30g 5/16 to put it into my abdomen. Pain is basically not a thing for me. On the days I go IM the 27g does both jobs; for the shot itself I keep the longer one, since the small pin is hard to push in IM and wobbles about inside the muscle, which hurts worse afterwards. Every subq shot is .3ml, and at 200mg per ml that works out to 60mg per dose. When I started, my levels sat just under 300. It changed my life. These days I can no longer separate medicine side effects from simply getting into shape - all I know is that I feel great compared with how I used to feel. The same thing happened with Chantix when I stopped smoking; pinning down whether the pill or the nicotine withdrawal was responsible was hard, yet it worked. Male, 50+. Good luck
 
Gr33dyOctopus said:

My labs came back in the 200's on two occasions this year, and my doctor called that perfectly normal. Even so, it looks really low to me.

Here is the part that will probably floor all of you: a gray-market vendor already has my order, purely as an experiment. Delivery is only a few days out.

Sooooo. Needles used to terrify me, and a half inch wide-bore one still does. I have been reading up on subq, though from what I gather IM is what works best. How small a gauge can I actually buy for this?

I keep seeing people pinning subq 3x weekly - is that actually workable?

What I do not want is to wreck the natural test I still have, not with 30 pounds left to shift. Going in for a brief experiment should not be enough to ruin me, should it?

Reta, gh and test together look like a holy trinity to me - the kind of stack that could plausibly have you feeling oh so good. Feeling oh so good is something I have never managed. Perhaps that is the reason I am an asshole and Zippity keeps a finger on the trigger ready to shut me up. Maybe it would also cure the assholism and finally put me on the road to being a church-attending, society-contributing sort of person?

Honestly, I have no idea. Trying all three of them is what I want to do, though. Talk me into it, or talk me out of it?
Click to expand...

A 200-300ng/dl range is probably a rough place to be.

For IM, anything long enough to reach the muscle does the job - a 1/2" 29g is enough. I use the same for SQ.

SQ 3x a week is my routine and I have no wish to change it. In my experience IM leaves the muscle badly sore - badly enough that I gave up on TRT years ago, simply because SQ was something I had not heard of.

Once you add outside test, your own production gets shut down. Sitting in the 200s means there is little left to lose. HCG is an option if you want to keep the huevos producing and stop them shrinking - that is, if that sort of thing appeals to you.
 
For IM you want at least a 1" needle. My setup is a 21g to draw with and a 25g 1" to inject with. The spot I use is the upper-outer quadrant of the glutes, either side - painless, because there is almost no nerve tissue back there. Coating the needle in a little oil also helps it slide in smoothly.
 
Get a full bloodwork panel done first - IGF-1, thyroid, SHGB, estradiol and test (that one you already have). Before piling Reta or HGH on top, get the TRT dialled in. Changing one variable at a time makes working out which adjustment is needed far easier. HGH has been giving me trouble: my IGF-1 came back high for a dose that low. I am off it for now, getting the TRT optimised, and will pick HGH back up once my hematocrit settles.
 
TRT was already underway for months before peptides entered the picture.

At the start I used a 25g to pull and a 27g to pin, 1x per week.

These days a single 30g handles both pull and pin. Cyp makes it slower, but it goes in just as well and with less discomfort. I also moved from 1x per week up to 2x per week. Levels climbed from the low 200s into 900-1000, though dropping 30 lbs did its part for my testosterone too.

My mood and SD are fine, so the current setup looks like my sweet spot. Reta only came in around 1.5 months ago and honestly it acts more as a limiter/maintenance tool for me - the point being not to put the weight back on, and it has improved my body composition. HGH is next on the list to dabble with.
 
Rezwalker said:

Go to a private endocrinologist and the trt script is yours.
Click to expand...
Telemed is the other route - TRT Nation went smoothly for me, and the draw was holding a controlled substance on a legal Rx.
 
14 years on trt now. An endo handled it for a stretch, but they aim for the acceptable range rather than the optimal one. These days it is TRT Nation and I semi self-manage. I agree with everyone on the labs: get a full work up so your baseline is on record, then retest around 8-10 weeks in.

My current protocol is 70mg/3 days, IM, mostly into the delts. Quads were the old spot until I caught a nerve once; delts suit me better. A 20g draws, a 1.5" 25g injects. Longer needles work better in my case - deeper into the muscle means less soreness, though soreness after a shot has not been a thing for me in years.
 
One more thing: while the weight is still coming off, watch your E2 along with total and free test as that continues. A lower dose may become necessary later on as body fat falls away. Nothing wrong with that - it is entirely normal.

Responses vary from person to person, so tailor your dose to your own numbers and how you feel, not to somebody else's.
 
In my case TRT Nation lets me take charge, they answer questions willingly, and they are fine with me adjusting before I talk to them... a far better experience than my local provider gave me.

One thing I forgot to mention:

TRT began roughly a month after the GLP-driven weight loss got going. My starting protocol was 40mg 3x week: all good except DHT sat low. Raising the dose 50% (60mg 3x) pushed DHT up 80% and brought it into range, but hematocrit climbed too far (56%). So down to 50mg 3x and a donation (52%); the 3 week post donation labs are due this week or next, which will show how hematocrit is recovering.

Labs focused on TRT come 8 weeks after any dose change, so round three of those lands next month.
 
Gr33dyOctopus said:

My labs came back in the 200's on two occasions this year, and my doctor called that perfectly normal. Even so, it looks really low to me.

Here is the part that will probably floor all of you: a gray-market vendor already has my order, purely as an experiment. Delivery is only a few days out.

Sooooo. Needles used to terrify me, and a half inch wide-bore one still does. I have been reading up on subq, though from what I gather IM is what works best. How small a gauge can I actually buy for this?

I keep seeing people pinning subq 3x weekly - is that actually workable?

What I do not want is to wreck the natural test I still have, not with 30 pounds left to shift. Going in for a brief experiment should not be enough to ruin me, should it?

Reta, gh and test together look like a holy trinity to me - the kind of stack that could plausibly have you feeling oh so good. Feeling oh so good is something I have never managed. Perhaps that is the reason I am an asshole and Zippity keeps a finger on the trigger ready to shut me up. Maybe it would also cure the assholism and finally put me on the road to being a church-attending, society-contributing sort of person?

Honestly, I have no idea. Trying all three of them is what I want to do, though. Talk me into it, or talk me out of it?
Click to expand...
Jumping in to just "try" it without knowing what that involves is not really smart, you know?

Your own production shuts down completely once you begin. Without a post cycle protocol ready (enclo, hcg...) stopping later feels even worse than sitting at 200, until your boys decide to start producing naturally again...

And if an Aromatase Inhibitor is not on hand, out of control estrogen can leave you growing man boobs before anyone addresses it....

This is not meant to scare you - I am on test myself and love it - but you have to be prepared and know what is involved before you "try" anything...
 
woundcarping said:

Rezwalker said:

Go to a private endocrinologist and the trt script is yours.
Click to expand...
Telemed is the other route - TRT Nation went smoothly for me, and the draw was holding a controlled substance on a legal Rx.
Click to expand...

Good grief, Octopus - you fall in the 49% who can get this done through the ordinary route... GO! A week was all my husband needed to have his in hand! Finding a provider and finally landing the appointment took me two years. Use that privilege of yours (with my best wishes)!

Anything in the 29-31 gauge range does the job for me. Drawing takes forever, which is why leuer lock has its fans: one gauge to draw with, a second to inject with. Warming the vial slightly is easy - 5 minutes down the bra does it. Pens were something I tried, and they suit "water" based far better.
 
woundcarping said:

In my case TRT Nation lets me take charge, they answer questions willingly, and they are fine with me adjusting before I talk to them... a far better experience than my local provider gave me.

One thing I forgot to mention:

TRT began roughly a month after the GLP-driven weight loss got going. My starting protocol was 40mg 3x week: all good except DHT sat low. Raising the dose 50% (60mg 3x) pushed DHT up 80% and brought it into range, but hematocrit climbed too far (56%). So down to 50mg 3x and a donation (52%); the 3 week post donation labs are due this week or next, which will show how hematocrit is recovering.

Labs focused on TRT come 8 weeks after any dose change, so round three of those lands next month.
Click to expand...

That point matters a lot, and it is a GREAT argument for finding a provider who knows their stuff.

Cholesterol was something mine watched closely, and it has stayed great.
 
Gr33dyOctopus said:

My labs came back in the 200's on two occasions this year, and my doctor called that perfectly normal. Even so, it looks really low to me.

Here is the part that will probably floor all of you: a gray-market vendor already has my order, purely as an experiment. Delivery is only a few days out.

Sooooo. Needles used to terrify me, and a half inch wide-bore one still does. I have been reading up on subq, though from what I gather IM is what works best. How small a gauge can I actually buy for this?

I keep seeing people pinning subq 3x weekly - is that actually workable?

What I do not want is to wreck the natural test I still have, not with 30 pounds left to shift. Going in for a brief experiment should not be enough to ruin me, should it?

Reta, gh and test together look like a holy trinity to me - the kind of stack that could plausibly have you feeling oh so good. Feeling oh so good is something I have never managed. Perhaps that is the reason I am an asshole and Zippity keeps a finger on the trigger ready to shut me up. Maybe it would also cure the assholism and finally put me on the road to being a church-attending, society-contributing sort of person?

Honestly, I have no idea. Trying all three of them is what I want to do, though. Talk me into it, or talk me out of it?
Click to expand...
Blood level of T is not the only thing that counts - you also need significant quality of life symptoms to be clearly present.

Which brings me to your dr's point: what makes you sure those blood levels are abnormal in your case?

Going on T off your own bat is unwise - long term endocrine issues are a possibility, unlikely perhaps, but..
 
Gr33dyOctopus said:

My labs came back in the 200's on two occasions this year, and my doctor called that perfectly normal. Even so, it looks really low to me.

Here is the part that will probably floor all of you: a gray-market vendor already has my order, purely as an experiment. Delivery is only a few days out.

Sooooo. Needles used to terrify me, and a half inch wide-bore one still does. I have been reading up on subq, though from what I gather IM is what works best. How small a gauge can I actually buy for this?

I keep seeing people pinning subq 3x weekly - is that actually workable?

What I do not want is to wreck the natural test I still have, not with 30 pounds left to shift. Going in for a brief experiment should not be enough to ruin me, should it?

Reta, gh and test together look like a holy trinity to me - the kind of stack that could plausibly have you feeling oh so good. Feeling oh so good is something I have never managed. Perhaps that is the reason I am an asshole and Zippity keeps a finger on the trigger ready to shut me up. Maybe it would also cure the assholism and finally put me on the road to being a church-attending, society-contributing sort of person?

Honestly, I have no idea. Trying all three of them is what I want to do, though. Talk me into it, or talk me out of it?
Click to expand...
Is pinning subq 3x weekly actually workable? It is.
 
Foggy-Hollow said:

woundcarping said:

In my case TRT Nation lets me take charge, they answer questions willingly, and they are fine with me adjusting before I talk to them... a far better experience than my local provider gave me.

One thing I forgot to mention:

TRT began roughly a month after the GLP-driven weight loss got going. My starting protocol was 40mg 3x week: all good except DHT sat low. Raising the dose 50% (60mg 3x) pushed DHT up 80% and brought it into range, but hematocrit climbed too far (56%). So down to 50mg 3x and a donation (52%); the 3 week post donation labs are due this week or next, which will show how hematocrit is recovering.

Labs focused on TRT come 8 weeks after any dose change, so round three of those lands next month.
Click to expand...

That point matters a lot, and it is a GREAT argument for finding a provider who knows their stuff.

Cholesterol was something mine watched closely, and it has stayed great.
Click to expand...

Hematocrit had not come up with them yet. Our 8 week followup actually landed nearer 10 weeks, by which time my dose was already adjusted; he was fine with that once he had asked a few questions to check I was not doing something else to bring my DHT down.

His line was that any questions could be emailed in and another phone appointment would be arranged - a generous offer, coming from a script mill.

tendency said:

Gr33dyOctopus said:

My labs came back in the 200's on two occasions this year, and my doctor called that perfectly normal. Even so, it looks really low to me.

Here is the part that will probably floor all of you: a gray-market vendor already has my order, purely as an experiment. Delivery is only a few days out.

Sooooo. Needles used to terrify me, and a half inch wide-bore one still does. I have been reading up on subq, though from what I gather IM is what works best. How small a gauge can I actually buy for this?

I keep seeing people pinning subq 3x weekly - is that actually workable?

What I do not want is to wreck the natural test I still have, not with 30 pounds left to shift. Going in for a brief experiment should not be enough to ruin me, should it?

Reta, gh and test together look like a holy trinity to me - the kind of stack that could plausibly have you feeling oh so good. Feeling oh so good is something I have never managed. Perhaps that is the reason I am an asshole and Zippity keeps a finger on the trigger ready to shut me up. Maybe it would also cure the assholism and finally put me on the road to being a church-attending, society-contributing sort of person?

Honestly, I have no idea. Trying all three of them is what I want to do, though. Talk me into it, or talk me out of it?
Click to expand...
Blood level of T is not the only thing that counts - you also need significant quality of life symptoms to be clearly present.

Which brings me to your dr's point: what makes you sure those blood levels are abnormal in your case?

Going on T off your own bat is unwise - long term endocrine issues are a possibility, unlikely perhaps, but..
Click to expand...

Feels like an exaggeration to me.

A prescription can rest on low labs by themselves, on reasonable labs plus low t symptoms, or on low labs plus symptoms. "Significant symptoms" boils down to saying you are moody, have low drive, no libido, and so on.

My own experience with a PCP or a local provider was miserable. A lucky few have a local "functional doctor," but for everyone else, Telemed is the answer.
 
woundcarping said:

Foggy-Hollow said:

woundcarping said:

In my case TRT Nation lets me take charge, they answer questions willingly, and they are fine with me adjusting before I talk to them... a far better experience than my local provider gave me.

One thing I forgot to mention:

TRT began roughly a month after the GLP-driven weight loss got going. My starting protocol was 40mg 3x week: all good except DHT sat low. Raising the dose 50% (60mg 3x) pushed DHT up 80% and brought it into range, but hematocrit climbed too far (56%). So down to 50mg 3x and a donation (52%); the 3 week post donation labs are due this week or next, which will show how hematocrit is recovering.

Labs focused on TRT come 8 weeks after any dose change, so round three of those lands next month.
Click to expand...

That point matters a lot, and it is a GREAT argument for finding a provider who knows their stuff.

Cholesterol was something mine watched closely, and it has stayed great.
Click to expand...

Hematocrit had not come up with them yet. Our 8 week followup actually landed nearer 10 weeks, by which time my dose was already adjusted; he was fine with that once he had asked a few questions to check I was not doing something else to bring my DHT down.

His line was that any questions could be emailed in and another phone appointment would be arranged - a generous offer, coming from a script mill.

tendency said:

Gr33dyOctopus said:

My labs came back in the 200's on two occasions this year, and my doctor called that perfectly normal. Even so, it looks really low to me.

Here is the part that will probably floor all of you: a gray-market vendor already has my order, purely as an experiment. Delivery is only a few days out.

Sooooo. Needles used to terrify me, and a half inch wide-bore one still does. I have been reading up on subq, though from what I gather IM is what works best. How small a gauge can I actually buy for this?

I keep seeing people pinning subq 3x weekly - is that actually workable?

What I do not want is to wreck the natural test I still have, not with 30 pounds left to shift. Going in for a brief experiment should not be enough to ruin me, should it?

Reta, gh and test together look like a holy trinity to me - the kind of stack that could plausibly have you feeling oh so good. Feeling oh so good is something I have never managed. Perhaps that is the reason I am an asshole and Zippity keeps a finger on the trigger ready to shut me up. Maybe it would also cure the assholism and finally put me on the road to being a church-attending, society-contributing sort of person?

Honestly, I have no idea. Trying all three of them is what I want to do, though. Talk me into it, or talk me out of it?
Click to expand...
Blood level of T is not the only thing that counts - you also need significant quality of life symptoms to be clearly present.

Which brings me to your dr's point: what makes you sure those blood levels are abnormal in your case?

Going on T off your own bat is unwise - long term endocrine issues are a possibility, unlikely perhaps, but..
Click to expand...

Feels like an exaggeration to me.

A prescription can rest on low labs by themselves, on reasonable labs plus low t symptoms, or on low labs plus symptoms. "Significant symptoms" boils down to saying you are moody, have low drive, no libido, and so on.

My own experience with a PCP or a local provider was miserable. A lucky few have a local "functional doctor," but for everyone else, Telemed is the answer.
Click to expand...
Absolutely not. Committing to a life long medication, shutting down your endogenous endocrine system and facing potentially very significant side effects - before all that, you had better be damn sure the condition you are treating is the right one.
 
Once u start pinning test, ur own production is very likely to shut down regardless. So my own take is not to begin at all unless u accept that this could become something u need long-term.

Generally IM is the better option, particularly when u pin often, say every 2nd day. Fluctuations tend to come down that way and side effect risk goes with them.

Dosage and which ester u pick matter too. U never said whether this is TRT, TRT+, or a push into high supraphysiological levels. That choice decides how soon or late the effects show up. Broadly though, settling at a stable, balanced level takes somewhere around 2–3 months.
 
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